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this looks like sort of an interesting book

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sinrakin
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PostPosted: 11/09/04 - 16:34    Post subject: this looks like sort of an interesting book Reply with quote

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/09/1526251

I always said the Iraq war was about the oil, but not anything as heavy handed and obvious as going in and stealing it, just exerting control so things tend flow our way.

Some brief excerpts:
Quote:
We speak with John Perkins, a former respected member of the international banking community. In his book Confessions of an Economic Hit Man he describes how as a highly paid professional, he helped the U.S. cheat poor countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars by lending them more money than they could possibly repay and then take over their economies.
...
AMY GOODMAN: Okay. Explain the company you worked for.

JOHN PERKINS: Well, the company I worked for was a company named Chas. T. Main in Boston, Massachusetts. We were about 2,000 employees, and I became its chief economist. I ended up having fifty people working for me. But my real job was deal-making. It was giving loans to other countries, huge loans, much bigger than they could possibly repay. One of the conditions of the loan–let's say a $1 billion to a country like Indonesia or Ecuador–and this country would then have to give ninety percent of that loan back to a U.S. company, or U.S. companies, to build the infrastructure–a Halliburton or a Bechtel. These were big ones. Those companies would then go in and build an electrical system or ports or highways, and these would basically serve just a few of the very wealthiest families in those countries. The poor people in those countries would be stuck ultimately with this amazing debt that they couldn’t possibly repay. A country today like Ecuador owes over fifty percent of its national budget just to pay down its debt. And it really can’t do it. So, we literally have them over a barrel. So, when we want more oil, we go to Ecuador and say, “Look, you're not able to repay your debts, therefore give our oil companies your Amazon rain forest, which are filled with oil.” And today we're going in and destroying Amazonian rain forests, forcing Ecuador to give them to us because they’ve accumulated all this debt. So we make this big loan, most of it comes back to the United States, the country is left with the debt plus lots of interest, and they basically become our servants, our slaves. It's an empire. There's no two ways about it. It’s a huge empire. It's been extremely successful.
...
AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to John Perkins. In your book, you talk about how you helped to implement a secret scheme that funneled billions of dollars of Saudi Arabian petrol dollars back into the U.S. economy, and that further cemented the intimate relationship between the House of Saud and successive U.S. administrations. Explain.

JOHN PERKINS: Yes, it was a fascinating time. I remember well, you're probably too young to remember, but I remember well in the early seventies how OPEC exercised this power it had, and cut back on oil supplies. We had cars lined up at gas stations. The country was afraid that it was facing another 1929-type of crash–depression; and this was unacceptable. So, they -- the Treasury Department hired me and a few other economic hit men. We went to Saudi Arabia. We --

AMY GOODMAN: You're actually called economic hit men --e.h.m.’s?

JOHN PERKINS: Yeah, it was a tongue-in-cheek term that we called ourselves. Officially, I was a chief economist. We called ourselves e.h.m.'s. It was tongue-in-cheek. It was like, nobody will believe us if we say this, you know? And, so, we went to Saudi Arabia in the early seventies. We knew Saudi Arabia was the key to dropping our dependency, or to controlling the situation. And we worked out this deal whereby the Royal House of Saud agreed to send most of their petro-dollars back to the United States and invest them in U.S. government securities. The Treasury Department would use the interest from these securities to hire U.S. companies to build Saudi Arabia–new cities, new infrastructure–which we’ve done. And the House of Saud would agree to maintain the price of oil within acceptable limits to us, which they’ve done all of these years, and we would agree to keep the House of Saud in power as long as they did this, which we’ve done, which is one of the reasons we went to war with Iraq in the first place. And in Iraq we tried to implement the same policy that was so successful in Saudi Arabia, but Saddam Hussein didn't buy. When the economic hit men fail in this scenario, the next step is what we call the jackals. Jackals are C.I.A.-sanctioned people that come in and try to foment a coup or revolution. If that doesn't work, they perform assassinations. or try to. In the case of Iraq, they weren't able to get through to Saddam Hussein. He had -- His bodyguards were too good. He had doubles. They couldn’t get through to him. So the third line of defense, if the economic hit men and the jackals fail, the next line of defense is our young men and women, who are sent in to die and kill, which is what we’ve obviously done in Iraq.
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rosie
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PostPosted: 11/09/04 - 19:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did these countries not realize that they wouldn't be able to pay the money back when they accepted it?
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Occulis
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PostPosted: 11/09/04 - 19:51    Post subject: Re: this looks like sort of an interesting book Reply with quote

Probably didn't care.

Quote:
Those companies would then go in and build an electrical system or ports or highways, and these would basically serve just a few of the very wealthiest families in those countries. The poor people in those countries would be stuck ultimately with this amazing debt that they couldn’t possibly repay.
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Starks
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PostPosted: 11/09/04 - 19:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being offered money upfront and being able to pay it back over time is such a lure to human nature. That is why now credit card debt is affecting over 30% of Americans. The rich people that run the 3rd world countries get what they want, while the people playing taxes suffer. Sounds familiar.
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ATM Banana
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PostPosted: 11/10/04 - 04:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

hahahahahaha.

oh shit, thats really funny.
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Starks
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PostPosted: 11/11/04 - 15:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman. Only thing you can say is WTF?! Everyone should read this book. It went fairly quick too. Of course Scrabler and Kbarr can't read this book, but everyone else should be able to.
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kbarr
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PostPosted: 11/11/04 - 20:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starks wrote:
Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman. Only thing you can say is WTF?! Everyone should read this book. It went fairly quick too. Of course Scrabler and Kbarr can't read this book, but everyone else should be able to.



My side was VICTORIOUS!

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Starks
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PostPosted: 11/11/04 - 22:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can read!
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xammer99
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PostPosted: 11/12/04 - 19:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. To laugh that this is some sort of revelation to you folks and that its more ammunition for how “evil” America is, or cry that you understand so little about how the real world works. American’s have it good, and I mean REALLY good. And we have it good because quite literally of cheap oil. You can spew about whatever you want about why American’s have it so good, but in the end, it always and without any exception whatsoever comes down to oil. Why? Because Oil is the #1 source of energy on the planet and oil is what makes our technological civilization possible. Look around you, there is nothing, not a single thing in your life that is not dependant on oil, from transportation to manufacturing, it is all, 100% dependant upon oil. Your lights, your car, your groceries, everything depends upon oil.

So you can sit there at your computer typing away and pretending this is some sort of ‘revelation’ that oil is important to the US Government all you want and that some weird things get done to guarantee oil supplies. But in the end, it comes down to our way of life depends 100% on oil. Take away the oil and society doesn’t break down, it ceases. Flat out ceases and I hope to hell you have a 20 or so acre farm that you can support yourself from, because if not your ass is starving fast.

Further, that you people can be so surprised that US Foreign Policy revolves around oil and has since Truman is absolutely beyond me as well. Oil, as stated before, is what makes every nation on this earth at this time possible. And the nations that possess it by default have every other nation bent over the barrel quite literally. OPEC demonstrated this VERY successfully in the 1970 that when they came together and agreed they could f**k the world, and f**k it but good should they chose. So that anyone is surprised that the US hit back against that is just pathetic.

Finally, for those of you using this as ammunition for the ‘evil’ America is you gain extra points for making Xammer sick, congratulations you naďve snit. If you think there is not a nation on this planet that doesn’t have energy policy as its #1 underlying concern you are deluding yourself. Every nation does these things if they are able. France, Germany, the UK, Japan, China, India, Russia, etc… Why do you think France, Germany, and Russia are so against us going into Iraq? Because it screwed up THEIR shady oil dealings there so we could put in our shady oil dealings.

Granted this is a bit of a rant, but seriously it is so depressing that anyone can consider it some sort of revelation or surprise that mean shit gets done over oil and that its just a “Republican” or “American” thing. Its not, both parties have done and will continue to do it, as will every nation on this earth until the oil runs out.

One last thing about the Iraqi War, it’s a LOT more complex than just “oil”, but Oil absolutely played a big part in it. And those of you whining about that while still turning on your lights, enjoying your fruit from Florida, watching your television, and typing on your computers can all kiss it you hypocrites. =) You all enjoy the benefits of this policy and have for every second of your life, no matter what country you reside in unless you are living in a stone age culture, in which case you won’t be reading this anyways.
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kbarr
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PostPosted: 11/12/04 - 20:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

xammer99 wrote:
Take away the oil and society doesn’t break down, it ceases. Flat out ceases and I hope to hell you have a 20 or so acre farm that you can support yourself from, because if not your ass is starving fast.


There are other ways to ward off starvation.

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xammer99
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PostPosted: 11/12/04 - 20:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kbarr wrote:
xammer99 wrote:
Take away the oil and society doesn’t break down, it ceases. Flat out ceases and I hope to hell you have a 20 or so acre farm that you can support yourself from, because if not your ass is starving fast.


There are other ways to ward off starvation.



*chuckle* I knew some lackwit would attempt to refute with that. Your gun there is based entirely upon oil. From the polymer components of the gun and shells to the transportation needed to bring it to you. So without oil, you get no new shells and once you are out of ammunition you are done with it and it becomes a worthless and remarkably fragile club.

Further, you cannot possibly shoot everyone, because if the oil cuts off and society goes to shit, you have 290 million others in America alone all with the exact same thought you have... horde horde horde. Get all the food you can and hold onto it as best you can, even if ya gotta kill for it. Because in that society, might makes right, and with 290 million competitors, your chances of victory are slim and none.
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kbarr
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PostPosted: 11/12/04 - 21:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

xammer99 wrote:
Kbarr wrote:
xammer99 wrote:
Take away the oil and society doesn’t break down, it ceases. Flat out ceases and I hope to hell you have a 20 or so acre farm that you can support yourself from, because if not your ass is starving fast.


There are other ways to ward off starvation.



*chuckle* I knew some lackwit would attempt to refute with that. Your gun there is based entirely upon oil. From the polymer components of the gun and shells to the transportation needed to bring it to you. So without oil, you get no new shells and once you are out of ammunition you are done with it and it becomes a worthless and remarkably fragile club.

Further, you cannot possibly shoot everyone, because if the oil cuts off and society goes to shit, you have 290 million others in America alone all with the exact same thought you have... horde horde horde. Get all the food you can and hold onto it as best you can, even if ya gotta kill for it. Because in that society, might makes right, and with 290 million competitors, your chances of victory are slim and none.


Kid, you gotta get out more and stop trying to think deep thoughts.

What exactly did i refute?

If the shit hits the fan, the people with the most and best guns will end up on top of the hill.

Quote:
Because in that society, might makes right, and with 290 million competitors, your chances of victory are slim and none.


You even agree.

Are you saying I would personally die? LOL, Yup, I will, so will you some day. But, if the shit hits the fan the meat eaters will be armed and the grass eaters won't.

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Kaladam
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PostPosted: 11/12/04 - 21:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kbarr wrote:
xammer99 wrote:
Kbarr wrote:
xammer99 wrote:
Take away the oil and society doesn’t break down, it ceases. Flat out ceases and I hope to hell you have a 20 or so acre farm that you can support yourself from, because if not your ass is starving fast.


There are other ways to ward off starvation.



*chuckle* I knew some lackwit would attempt to refute with that. Your gun there is based entirely upon oil. From the polymer components of the gun and shells to the transportation needed to bring it to you. So without oil, you get no new shells and once you are out of ammunition you are done with it and it becomes a worthless and remarkably fragile club.

Further, you cannot possibly shoot everyone, because if the oil cuts off and society goes to shit, you have 290 million others in America alone all with the exact same thought you have... horde horde horde. Get all the food you can and hold onto it as best you can, even if ya gotta kill for it. Because in that society, might makes right, and with 290 million competitors, your chances of victory are slim and none.


Kid, you gotta get out more and stop trying to think deep thoughts.

What exactly did i refute?

If the shit hits the fan, the people with the most and best guns will end up on top of the hill.

Quote:
Because in that society, might makes right, and with 290 million competitors, your chances of victory are slim and none.


You even agree.

Are you saying I would personally die? LOL, Yup, I will, so will you some day. But, if the shit hits the fan the meat eaters will be armed and the grass eaters won't.



Seriously, why a sight on a shotty?
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kbarr
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PostPosted: 11/12/04 - 21:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

To shoot something far away?
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Kaladam
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PostPosted: 11/12/04 - 22:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kbarr wrote:
To shoot something far away?


but as it gets more distance, isn't it just going to get more inaccuarte anyways? will a sight even help for that far out?

Edit: Just a fyi, I'm not that familiar with shotguns, mostly rifles and pistols I know about. Thats why I'm wondering.
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Frax
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PostPosted: 11/12/04 - 23:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can fire solid slugs from a shotgun, which don't scatter.
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Starks
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PostPosted: 11/13/04 - 21:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went to college for Materials Science, so I know how dependent everything is on oil. That is why it is such a big deal. What Xammer said is exactly why people should read and understand. This is exactly why energy reform has to be in place. Why, even after 2 court mandates, won't Cheney give up the documents from the Energy Council he so headed? Can you say, "racketeering"? I certainly know that it is a crime for non-executive branch officials. Guns and God is not going to save us when a real crisis is going to happen.
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