The time now is 09/07/08 - 03:44
Log in: Username: Password:
Search forums for:
  

the decline of american civilization

Post new topic   Reply to topic
Author Message
Booker
RealPoor Guru
RealPoor Guru


Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2562
Location: Corvallis, Oregon



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 02:24    Post subject: the decline of american civilization Reply with quote

something i found on another forum, good read:

-The Decline of American Civilization-

Consider.

Two hundred twenty five years ago, Americans decided that war was preferable to forfeiting their representative governments in favor of direct control from across the ocean. They believed that their lives, their homes, their families, were worth the risk in order to achieve self-determination.

One hundred forty years ago, Americans decided that war was preferable to living in a continent eternally divided between a land of free men and a land of slaves. They were willing to sacrifice their lives and suffer the horrors of war because they believed that a unified nation of free men was the only way to avoid a hundred generations of enmity on a divided continent.

Ninety years ago, Americans decided that war was preferable to watching a belligerent Triple Alliance crush France and Russia. They were willing to die on foreign soil to protect people who spoke a different language, because they believed that they were protecting freedom.

Sixty years ago, Americans decided that war was preferable to allowing Fascism and Nazism engulf Europe, while Japan’s Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere raped her neighbors of resources and lives. They were willing to sacrifice not only their lives, but their comfort, their tires, their meats, their convenience at home, because they believed that victory would create a world in which Americans would be safe from Fascist dictators.

Forty years ago, Americans decided that war was not preferable to allowing a belligerent Communist nation from swallowing her free southern sister. Americans did not want to sacrifice their comfort. While some Americans were brutally treated like animals in prison camps, while some were killed by nine-year-old Viet Cong carrying grenades into bars, while some Americans died so that a land of peasants would have a chance to some day be more than a land of peasants, other Americans didn’t agree.

Today, Americans feel that war is not preferable to allowing three belligerent, cruel regimes from threatening their neighbors. They feel that a temporary peace today is preferable than a safe peace tomorrow. Perhaps they think that one day these people will put down their AK-47s. Perhaps they believe that Iranian fundamentalists will decide that America is no longer the “Great Satan”, and when they develop nuclear weapons, they will not use them on the United States. Perhaps they believe that Saddam and his son will decide that the United States is their friend, and will not take advantage of US pacifism and enforce their will upon their neighbors in typical Clauswitzian fashion. Perhaps they believe that Kim Jong Il of North Korea will not threaten to use the power of the nuclear missiles he is developing, and that he will not attempt to subjugate South Korea, and that he would not use his nuclear arsenal to engorge his own international political power through nuclear coercion.

Pacifists believed that Adolf Hitler would cease after he remilitarized the Rhineland, but he didn’t. He didn’t stop with the Sudetenland either. Nor did he stop with the rest of Czechoslovakia. Or Memel. Or the Polish Corridor. Nor did he stop with Poland itself. Neither did Italy stop with Ethiopia. Nor did Japan stop with Korea, or Manchuria. Not even with the Rape of Nanking. Americans didn’t think it was worth the risk. They had ideals to fight for that must be preserved.

Perhaps Germany, however, would have stopped after France. Perhaps they wouldn’t have sought revenge for slights that went as far back as the Thirty Years’ War. Perhaps Austria-Hungary would not have rebuilt Hapsburg dominance in Europe. Perhaps the Ottomans would have been just to the Greeks and their Balkan neighbors. But Americans didn’t think it was worth the risk. They had ideals to fight for that must be preserved.

Perhaps the Confederate States of America would not have been a thorn in the side of the United States of America. Perhaps they would not have had a deep enmity. Perhaps their challenge to the principles of the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration of Independence would not have undermined American political stability as Lincoln feared. Perhaps they eventually would have freed the Negro, and would not have subjugated him with Jim Crow laws. But Americans didn’t think it was worth the risk. They had ideals to fight for that must be preserved.

Perhaps Thomas Paine’s and Patrick Henry’s fears were unfounded. Perhaps the British were only to quell a few small uprisings, and leave the colonies in peace. Perhaps King George’s branding of the Continental Congress as rebels was just bluster, and a gallows didn’t await every single member of the council should they be taken by the redcoats. Perhaps the threats of carving the thirteen colonies into feudal dominions were empty. Perhaps the rumors that German mercenaries were hired to occupy American homes and towns were unfounded. But Americans didn’t think it was worth the risk. They had ideals to fight for that must be preserved.

But today, Americans don’t see those principles anymore. They hear words like “oil,” and “U.N. Security Council resolution”. They have grown fat and lazy on the profits gained by the blood of Americans in 1776, 1861, 1917, and 1941. The years of plenty had made them complacent, and when the call to arms came in the 1960s, they protested. Some fled to Canada, where once our redcoated oppressors attempted to invade our homes and destroy our democracies. They taught their children that the Western democracy was something we shouldn’t “force down the throats” of the Third World. That we “oppressed the Third World.”

Never mind that 19 Americans died in Mogadishu in 1993, their bodies dragged through the streets by the very people we were trying to feed by removing the man who was starving them to death.

But that is where we stand. By trying to feed the world, we have come to oppress it. By encouraging democracy in capitalism, systems that have made Japan and Germany, once our bitter enemies, now our wealthiest friends, we have oppressed the Islamic Middle East.

And now, we stand on the brink of war again. On September 11, we were sent a clear message: “The United States must be destroyed.” The people of three regimes have said as much in the past twenty years. Two of those regimes have sent money and supplies to the perpetrators of 9/11. One sat back and watched, all the while formulating its own plans of regional military hegemony.

How do Americans react? Are they prepared to defend our principles? Are they willing to die? Are they willing to endure increased gas prices? Are they willing to endure national deficit? Is peace without fear tomorrow worth the cost of lives and money today?

Or is peace and comfort today, despite fear, preferable?

Civilizations who decide the latter begin their slow, inexorable spiral into decline. Civilizations who chose the former continue their ascension. If the choice of the Americans during the 1960s is made by America as a whole, then decline is assured. We will be going the way of Rome. And we will be displaying the same attitude and temperament the Romans did when the barbarians flooded in, destroying their cities, their homes, their way of life, their nation.
Back to top
Kbarr
Guest







PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 03:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post.

Thank god, President Bush is leading the way.

/Salute

Back to top
Mental_Hernia
RealPoor Guru
RealPoor Guru


Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 3336
Location: Texas



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 08:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was that a serious or sarcastic post, Kbarr?

Dont have tiem to read the post, but will later, looks good from the sentence or two I skimmed
Back to top
Akronn
RealPoor Master of Posts
RealPoor Master of Posts


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8752



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 09:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kbarr wrote:
Nice post.

Thank god, President Bush is leading the way.

/Salute


For another 19 months.
Back to top
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
RealPoor Master of Posts


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 09:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

There isn't a democrat out there who will beat GW Bush next year. 9/11 sentiment alone will carry him thru the election.
Back to top
Akronn
RealPoor Master of Posts
RealPoor Master of Posts


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8752



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 09:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was an article on CNN last week... a poll conducted had Bush losing to an unnamed Democrat challenger. Bush's approval rating isn't very good, and his situation is getting worse all the time.

He's a goner.
Back to top
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
RealPoor Master of Posts


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 09:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh don't believe everything you read .

Demos always say Repubs suck and are gonna lose.
Repubs always say Demos suck and are gonna lose.
Back to top
Manuva
Banned
Banned


Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2536



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 09:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's CNN


They're a pro Democrat news network.


Shall I pry open your eyes for you?
Back to top
Ursar
Luke Warm
Luke Warm


Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 134



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 10:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There was an article on CNN last week... a poll conducted had Bush losing to an unnamed Democrat challenger. Bush's approval rating isn't very good, and his situation is getting worse all the time.





Bah, the other top Democrat canidates were on this poll as well, and Bush skunked them.....

still though....this guy under "other" may be a canidate to look out for... Rolling Eyes
Back to top
Petr
Luke Warm
Luke Warm


Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 102



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 10:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

GREAT Article... and if you know Kbarr, you know he isnt being sarcastic.

CNN = Clinton News Network.

not only will Bush win in 2004, im predicting that the democrats lose another few seats in the Senate and about another dozen in the house.

Im glad that a man with charactor and perservence is leading this country at a time like this. A man whose beliefs arent exactly for sale to whoever donates the most to his party (at least his moral beliefs at any rate). A man who believes there is a definite right and wrong, and who believes that there is a definition of evil, and three regimes embody that.

I cant even begin to imagine what mr moral relativism himself Clinton, or Al "I created the internet" Gore would be doing right now.

Are we as Americans going to have the guts to stand up to the bull on this one? or are we gonna whimper and go back sniveling, and wait for the next 9/11, which will be 10x worse then the original.

This isnt about killing babies, or death of iraqi innocents, tragedies in and of themselves... but there comes a point that it is going to be them or us....

which is it?

petr
Back to top
Manuva
Banned
Banned


Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2536



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 10:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

CNN covers every damn anti war rally across the continent, but for the past month there's been pro-troop (Not pro war, but rallies to support our troops no matter what) and CNN hasn't paid them a bit of attention.

Also, I'm quite sure there was anti-war rallies during the Clinton term, when we went into Bosnia and sent 400 cruise missiles into Iraq, where was the CNN coverage of them?


Just a few things to show you CNN is a joke, and so are their "polls".
Back to top
Akronn
RealPoor Master of Posts
RealPoor Master of Posts


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8752



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 10:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

*laugh* the media is always liberal when they're saying anything negetive about the GOP Rolling Eyes

Fine, go to any other source and you'll see Bush's approval rating is around 60%, not that bad but then consider his rating for the economy is 14% lower than that. His crusade against Iraq is the only thing keeping him afloat right now... but what's gonna happen when this blows over in a few months (because it will, everybody knows that)? Attention will be turned back to how America is doing in America, and the news isn't pretty.

This scenario sound familiar? His father played the same song...
Back to top
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
RealPoor Master of Posts


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 10:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

The media is always liberal?

http://www.nationalreview.com
Back to top
Petr
Luke Warm
Luke Warm


Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 102



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 10:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually, FoxNews is probably the fairest.

CNN is definitely left leaning, but, the network news is worse (cnn at least has crossfire). Brokaw and Rather are furthur left then clinton. Ted Coppel is left, but plays the middle well (night line is actually semi decent, and Ted in a town hall meeting actually attacked the left wingers, which i thought was odd). But NBC, CBS, and ABC night time news programs are so liberally biased as to be absolutely useless.

And lets not forget the morning morons too, although Paula Zahn is quite liberal, that other dude isnt, so they balance out (the old guy that looks like the dude who played Maverik). but Katie Curic is an absolute commie.

There is general bias in all news reporting, but some keep it out better then others. I think Fox probably does the best job, and Brokaw and Curic do the absolute worse.

also, for the real conservatives, check out WorldNetDaily.
http://www.wnd.com

if you really wanna get a conservative PoV... i warn you though, Farah does not pull punches.... Shocked

petr
Back to top
Reebo
Sir Postalot
Sir Postalot


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1260
Location: Downtown Miami



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 10:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just like daddy this bush will be gone in 2004.
Back to top
Akronn
RealPoor Master of Posts
RealPoor Master of Posts


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8752



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 11:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frax, I'm saying that everytime someone in the media dare criticises a Republican (especially the president), they're branded a leftist nutjob. It's implying that no rational, unbiased individual could ever find a fault in the GOP Rolling Eyes

Oh, and thanks for popups.
Back to top
Brash
RealPoor Guru
RealPoor Guru


Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 3958



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 11:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

really all depends how this war goes . If shit hits the fan and tons of Americans die or there are waves of terrorist strikes on US soil because of Bush's war ...... I dont see him having a chance in hell of getting elected again. Not to mention our economy that gets worse and worse every day he has been in power.

Now on the other hand if we go in , blow the shit out of Iraq with very few deaths , no retaliatory terrorist strikes and the enconomy takes a big upturn , well then he has a lock.


way way to early to be saying he will or wont be elected again. so meny HUGE things going on right now.
Back to top
Kudil
Luke Warm
Luke Warm


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 135



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 15:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post.

And CNN is most definately the "Clinton News Network" ... anyone with their head far enough out of their ass to think for themselves knows that.

As to the economy, blame clinton for that.

As to the war..... True, clinton wouldnt have done shit, he'd have said "Hey, hit the statue of liberty too, i can't be bothered, im getting my d**k sucked here"

Yup, thats what we need in a president... Get f****d.
Back to top
Grummpy
Luke Warm
Luke Warm


Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 322



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 16:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

But today, Americans don’t see those principles anymore. They hear words like “oil,” and “U.N. Security Council resolution”. They have grown fat and lazy on the profits gained by the blood of Americans in 1776, 1861, 1917, and 1941. The years of plenty had made them complacent, and when the call to arms came in the 1960s, they protested. Some fled to Canada, where once our redcoated oppressors attempted to invade our homes and destroy our democracies. They taught their children that the Western democracy was something we shouldn’t “force down the throats” of the Third World. That we “oppressed the Third World.”


that is so the truth, anyone remember that commercial for I think it was Mutual of Omaha where the Indian looks over the hill at the litter and pollution and crys? thats what this reminds me of.

as for these Polls on where or not or should or shouldnt, thats a whole nother pile of crap anyone can thrown at you.

From what I found out in research, Most of these polls are conducted similar to the way advertising works.

some TV or raideo show on something says "Call in now to place your vote" people watching/listening to the show call in, out of the 100,000
people lisening/watching 2000 call in, the poll indicates that 80% of the people Blah blah blah.... the fact is that the most people that called in are the "regulars" to the show, there fore they usually agree with the Shows view so the Polls are inflated in the favor of the shows View.

Now some news paper retard gets wind of this said poll and reports "recent poll shows Prez bush is more then likly gonna have a **** change operation in 2004"
but whats not reported is that the poll was conducted at a alabama middle school.

silly people Tricks are for kids.
Back to top
Overon
RealPoor Guru
RealPoor Guru


Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 3602
Location: PLANE OF PIXIES



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 17:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh please

war isnt about judging our comfort level in war vs. out of war any more

in fact, war of 200 years ago has absolutely no relation to war of today. comparing the two in an article is the highest form of idiocy i have seen in a pro-war article. (unless of course you knew it was idiotic but also knew there were idiots out there who would believe it .. in that case it is genius)

war today is what do we do to keep our nation alive .. what risks are worth taking and what arent

we didnt go to war with russia because the war could have easily lasted less than a day with each nation crippled by nuclear weapons

that wasnt a consideration 200 years ago .. now it is


im not really going to comment on anything else but whoever wrote that article wouldnt know the big picture if it punched him in the face (or he does and he is masterfully manipulating the stupid american public)
Back to top
Manuva
Banned
Banned


Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2536



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 17:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he gets the big picture rather well - If America lets go of its ideals on this it will go the way of the Roman empire sooner, rather than later.
Back to top
Overon
RealPoor Guru
RealPoor Guru


Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 3602
Location: PLANE OF PIXIES



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 17:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

if america starts engaging in risks not worth taking it will go sooner rather than later

is the war with iraq really a risk we need to take?

we basically have had zero terrorist attacks since 9-11, war with iraq could easily change that..

but if iraq is seriously planning terrorism for the future then the risk of attacking them is probably worth it..

ideals dont work in a real world, calculation of risk does

im not saying war is bad .. im not saying what america should or shouldnt do

im just saying that war as an idea given by the picture and tone of that article is war in some fantasy ideal world .. not the real one
Back to top
Grummpy
Luke Warm
Luke Warm


Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 322



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 18:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
we basically have had zero terrorist attacks since 9-11, war with iraq could easily change that


/Sigh

theres been over 2000 terrorist arrests worldwide since 9/11
300+ in britian alone
200+ in U.S.

im not even gonna list all the arrests in other countrys.

Now so far Were staying one step ahead of the terrorists by makeing these arrests
but they keep comeing.

so how do you stop the Bubbles?
1. do you keep poping the bubbles floating around you in the air and hope none slip by?
2. do you unplug the Bubble maker and stop it from makeing new ones?

Its your choice. choose it wisely.
Back to top
Overon
RealPoor Guru
RealPoor Guru


Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 3602
Location: PLANE OF PIXIES



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 19:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

there have been no major terrorist attacks

hell, none of those 200 have even been reported in the news

list some for me .. because i dont see any

(and dont bother saying anthrax because that wasnt outside terrorism)


also, attacking iraq is by no means going to stop those useless terrorist attacks .. in fact if anything it will increase their frequency


but still your missing the point of my post


i add one little thing that somehow relates to the question of should we attack iraq or not and dont even make it clearly sided and the discussion shifts over to whether or not to attack
Back to top
compusmack
RealPoor Master of Posts
RealPoor Master of Posts


Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 6354



PostPosted: 03/11/03 - 20:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to top
Grummpy
Luke Warm
Luke Warm


Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 322



PostPosted: 03/12/03 - 00:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry If I'm curt with you, it's because time is a factor. I think fast, I talk fast, and I need you guys to act fast if you want to get out of this. So pretty please, with sugar on top, Support the f****n' War.
Back to top
Leilu
Sir Postalot
Sir Postalot


Joined: 12 Nov 2002
Posts: 1164



PostPosted: 03/12/03 - 10:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Im glad that a man with charactor and perservence is leading this country at a time like this. A man whose beliefs arent exactly for sale to whoever donates the most to his party (at least his moral beliefs at any rate). A man who believes there is a definite right and wrong, and who believes that there is a definition of evil, and three regimes embody that."


And a man that had his daddy help him dodge the Vietnam war draft!
Back to top
Manuva
Banned
Banned


Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2536



PostPosted: 03/12/03 - 10:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

I *could* be mistaken here, but I don't believe college bound students were drafted into Vietnam.

I'm almost 100% positive that my father was not eligible for the draft because of his collegiate enrollment.
Back to top
compusmack
RealPoor Master of Posts
RealPoor Master of Posts


Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 6354



PostPosted: 03/12/03 - 10:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manuva wrote:
I *could* be mistaken here, but I don't believe college bound students were drafted into Vietnam.

I'm almost 100% positive that my father was not eligible for the draft because of his collegiate enrollment.


You are correct.
Back to top
Manuva
Banned
Banned


Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2536



PostPosted: 03/12/03 - 10:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG HE DODGED THE DRAFT BY GOING TO COLLEGE OMG!
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Goto page 1, 2   Next
Page 1 of 2

Related topics:
Christmas, Christian, or American?
Japanese women is hawt for American guys
American ninja
American servers
American hater forum
Americans expect results
Steve Levy, American Hero
WTS 70 Priest on rp/pvp server american
Baghdad...the American Stalingrad...
american pie movies rock!!!!!!!!!!!
An Arab American's view.
random african american art(NWS)
Greatest American Hero!
II S M G II 's Pin Shop (SMS)(PBP)AMERICAN,UK,CANDA PIN800ke
Are Americans really this fat?
Poll: 44% of Americans hate freedom
Discussion - Americans
President Bush and an American on Mars.
American Chopper pwns.
American Inferiority. Myth 221 - Illegal Immigration
Civilization 1
Civilization, First Version
Trade Full AOM and Civilization 3 for Guild Wars access Key!
Looking for Civilization 2
Civilization 2
Civilization IV