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Brash
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 3958
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 Posted: 03/30/03 - 02:40 Post subject: mutual flagging agreement
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what was it and why did TA back out ?
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Akronn
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8752
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Posted: 03/30/03 - 02:44 Post subject:
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You know, I honestly didn't think VI could conjure up a better way to suck the life out of EQ than epics... but they did! Yay for flags!
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TASB
Sir Postalot
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 1104
Location: The Outback
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Posted: 03/30/03 - 02:50 Post subject:
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TA Drama for life, huh Brash?
Why don't you just ask one of your friends in TA, or don't you have any?
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khalysta
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 641
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Posted: 03/30/03 - 03:54 Post subject:
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mutual flagging agreement is where guilds agree to flag other guilds members while doing a pop encounter. So say Guild X does Agnarr for example and Guild Y has 3 people on that missed that flag they can send those three along with Guild X to get the flag. That way guild y doesnt have to go back and do agnarr just for those three with hopes of less competition over events and spawns. This assumes of course that guild Y has killed agnarr in the past. Pretty simple and seemed to work well for the most part.
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The Gossipmonger
Luke Warm
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 193
Location: The Balkans
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Posted: 03/30/03 - 04:21 Post subject:
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Well, ever since they put a limit to the number of flags given, as well as the option to take along unflagged people if a certain percentage of your raid is flagged, I don't see how mutual flagging would work anymore.
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Aluaeia
Guest
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Posted: 03/30/03 - 04:24 Post subject:
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Because you can only take along such a % of unflagged people, and its a pain in the ass to deal with them when LDs occur, or people die, and the ratio of flagged to unflagged drops and the unflagged people get booted.
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The Gossipmonger
Luke Warm
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 193
Location: The Balkans
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Posted: 03/30/03 - 04:42 Post subject:
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Well, Plan B I guess. Awakened got p****d off that SA got power sources the other day.
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Ajilon
Fresh Meat
Joined: 04 Dec 2002
Posts: 5
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Posted: 03/30/03 - 05:03 Post subject:
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As far as I know there's really only one guild working on any of the flag mobs that we still do and I dont think we've ever brought with anyone for a flag on a mob their guild hasnt killed. So for example we wouldnt take someone with on Rallos but we might on Sol Ro mini's
And I dont know anyone that cares a whole lot about the Emp rifts, I respect the SA members that decided to wait for their own kill before looting, but I really dont think it'll take them much longer before they've earned all their own rifts anyway, so in the end it wont really change anything. Good luck on Emp and enjoy VT.
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Brash
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 3958
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Posted: 03/30/03 - 10:39 Post subject:
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was just curious
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Qaldyin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1346
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Posted: 03/30/03 - 19:32 Post subject:
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Nowhere near that Ashta.
And Brash, u always criticise ppl about coming to these boards and caring so much and all this b******t, when YOU urself starts shit here and has 680 some odd posts. Maybe u should get a f*****g reality check, because the person that cares a lot, if not the most is YOU.
If u want to see y TA backed out, go look at our site. It's been this way for like 3 weeks, i dont see y this shit was brought up now.
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Brash
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 3958
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 01:29 Post subject:
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i just asked because ED posted it on thier site how TA backed out. i guess i was just wondering what the agreement was and why they backed out. hence the post.
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Zorlac
Rookie
Joined: 12 Nov 2002
Posts: 96
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 06:30 Post subject:
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| Brash wrote: | | i just asked because ED posted it on thier site how TA backed out. i guess i was just wondering what the agreement was and why they backed out. hence the post. |
- I thought you didn't care. Ooops, my bad, I am dealing with a hypocrit moron here.
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Volx
Fresh Meat
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 5
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 09:48 Post subject:
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The agreement we have with a number of other guilds (and we used to have with TA) served a number of purposes for both sides:
1) ED agreed to, in general, stay away from Tier 1-2-3 content (bosses) to allow unfettered access by the younger guilds that were still advancing.
2) If ED did do a Tier 1-2-3 mob which another guild that was bound by the agreement had already killed, we would notify them in advance that they could send their people for flagging (note the pre-kill requirement....no free ride on mobs you've never won against before -- we had to turn away some BC from one raid because of this exact reason)
3) If any of the other guilds were doing a Tier-1-2-3 mob we needed flags for, ED was allowed to send people for flagging -- it was ED's responsibility to track the other guilds and inquire about raids, not for the other guilds to notify ED about every Tier-1-2-3 raid they were doing (ie, if our people REALLY wanted to be flagged, the burden was on them to inquire as to when/if the other guilds were raiding the particular mobs they needed). The ED members would help (or not help) as much as the sponsoring guild wanted (ie, if you wanted help on the kill, they would help....if you wanted the people to shut up and sit quietly in the back of camp until the time for the flag, they would do that too)
4) Alts and bots were excluded (with the exception of critical bot classes like clerics and enchanters), and recruits were not covered by this agreement, although either party *could* take them along if they wished (temporary guilding of a recruit just for a flag was discourage, but was allowable under the agreement - we tried not to do this, although it did happen on a few occasions for those recruits we were about to guild anyway).
Even with the 72 flag limit, unless we are talking about the first time a guild kills a particular mob, that limit is really not an issue. This agreement was all about helping each other - ED got the flags, the other guilds got free access to the mobs needed for advancing. No more Emperor style c**k-blocking on the tier-1-2-3 mobs. Since our agreements have been put in place, we have kept up our side of the bargain, largely avoiding Tier-1-2-3 content (I know of 1 TZ, 1 VZ, and 1 Agnarr raid in the last several months), and when we did do Tier-1-2-3 content, we notified all elligible guilds under the agreement that they could come for flags (including TA and BC). To say TA never benefitted from this agreement is at least to be misinformed....at worst and outright lie. /shrug. We do appreciate the cooperation we received from TA up until recently as well as the support from Numi, MoKB, Pak, SA, and whoever else I'm forgetting.
-Volx
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Brash
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 3958
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 10:25 Post subject:
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| Zorlac wrote: | | Brash wrote: | | i just asked because ED posted it on thier site how TA backed out. i guess i was just wondering what the agreement was and why they backed out. hence the post. |
- I thought you didn't care. Ooops, my bad, I am dealing with a hypocrit moron here. |
Still not sure what i did to zorlac hehehehe. one would think i f****d his mother or something. he has 17 total posts and 10 of them are about how much he hates me LOL
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Meeatsu
Sir Postalot
Joined: 10 Nov 2002
Posts: 1083
Location: St. Louis, Mo
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 10:49 Post subject:
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Ok I don't want to flame or start a war with you or anything but lets get some facts straight before this gets out of hand. I have nothing against you or your guild.
1) Flags and the entire flagging system is the dumbest thing SOE has ever come up with. I'm sure everybody can agree that the person who came up with this needs to be shot.
2) | Quote: | | 1) ED agreed to, in general, stay away from Tier 1-2-3 content (bosses) to allow unfettered access by the younger guilds that were still advancing. |
There was never such an agreement of this kind to my knowledge atleast with TA. If you had made this agreement with Numi or something thanks for letting us know! We could of totally avoided this whole mess.
3) | Quote: | | To say TA never benefitted from this agreement is at least to be misinformed....at worst and outright lie. |
Your right on this part. I went and checked logs as you said on your website (we do keep track of who gets flags from where and so on). Most of the flagging happened at your first 2 Behemoth kills(that stupid mob is the whole reason the flagging agreements started), like 4 months ago. Also Darkfists went along on one of your early Vallon Zek kills. Thats all..
The term "used" comes into mind here.
4) Theres a 2nd part to the reason why we terminated the agreement. It has nothing to do with flagging at all. I'm sure if you don't know what it is you can ask one of your members. It was rather stupid on your guild's part. Pointing fingers is just wrong and may seem silly to you but it sure did p**s off a lot of people 
If you guys want to sit down and come up with an agreement that will truely benefit both sides and isn't one-sided. I'm all for it.
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ryanstu
Fresh Meat
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 8
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 11:13 Post subject:
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Fatsu you are my hero, have my children k 
Aik
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Brash
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 3958
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 12:29 Post subject:
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there is a reason volx posted all that crap on the front page of thier website. I'm sure it was not to thank anyone.
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Spiritz
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1969
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 13:07 Post subject:
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Lets call it what it is, its not a mutially beneficially flagging agreement like one would think. Its a back flag ED's members so they don't c**k block you agreement.
Back in the real BC, ED flagged like a dozen of our members at I think TZ, once. That was the only flagging they did for us. We flagged a ton of their members at everything from HoH trials, Saryn and TZ/VZ raids. It was very one sided.
No offense and all, but lets call it what it is.
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Bromil
Total Newbie
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 32
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 13:08 Post subject:
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ya barsh, it was to entertain the clueless jackasses like yourself so you wouldnt be so bored as to kill yourself or some other favor for the world
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TmCleric
Luke Warm
Joined: 28 Dec 2002
Posts: 152
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 13:17 Post subject:
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Bottom Line
ED wants their ppl to be backflagged in exchange for not gimping Tarew Marr.
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Garshu
Fresh Meat
Joined: 12 Nov 2002
Posts: 9
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 15:05 Post subject:
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I usually refrain from posting but it would appear to be necessary to alleviate any misunderstandings. Admittedly, it is a whole lot better than jabbing at each other on the front page of each others websites.
| Quote: | | 1) ED agreed to, in general, stay away from Tier 1-2-3 content (bosses) to allow unfettered access by the younger guilds that were still advancing. |
ED's agreement to stay away from Tier 1, 2, and 3 boss mobs provides benefit for most guilds but it really is not beneficial to Awakened. Awakened and ED see Tier 1, 2, and 3 boss mobs as nothing more than a time sink. The loot is sub-par and the only reward is progression. Consequently, the "mutual benefit" can only be measured in time spent. As it currently stands... we are spending the "time" with no reciprocation from ED.
Admittedly though, ED is further along in PoP so the need or desire to "back-flag" is no longer necessary, other than recruits/alts/bots. I must admit that there is much debate and controversy over flagging ED recruits. I would think this would be a larger issue in guilds other than Awakened. I mean not many are willing to help out some "gimp recruit" that in a few short weeks will have all the "cool stuff" with little to no effort in the building and progression of staying loyal to guild. No matter how one feels about this issue we did indeed continue to flag alts/recruits during our agreement.
| Quote: | | 2) If ED did do a Tier 1-2-3 mob which another guild that was bound by the agreement had already killed, we would notify them in advance that they could send their people for flagging (note the pre-kill requirement....no free ride on mobs you've never won against before -- we had to turn away some BC from one raid because of this exact reason) |
This certainly sounds reasonable. I would have to add... and correct me if I am wrong... but ED has not done a Tier 1, 2 or 3 boss since your last RZ kill, that was over 2 months ago.
| Quote: | | 3) If any of the other guilds were doing a Tier-1-2-3 mob we needed flags for, ED was allowed to send people for flagging -- it was ED's responsibility to track the other guilds and inquire about raids, not for the other guilds to notify ED about every Tier-1-2-3 raid they were doing (ie, if our people REALLY wanted to be flagged, the burden was on them to inquire as to when/if the other guilds were raiding the particular mobs they needed). The ED members would help (or not help) as much as the sponsoring guild wanted (ie, if you wanted help on the kill, they would help....if you wanted the people to shut up and sit quietly in the back of camp until the time for the flag, they would do that too) |
Once again, your comments are reasonable and make sense.
| Quote: | | 4) Alts and bots were excluded (with the exception of critical bot classes like clerics and enchanters), and recruits were not covered by this agreement, although either party *could* take them along if they wished (temporary guilding of a recruit just for a flag was discourage, but was allowable under the agreement - we tried not to do this, although it did happen on a few occasions for those recruits we were about to guild anyway). |
I agree with this for the most part. Although a large majority of the back-flagging of ED members were for recruits/alts/bots. I personally could care less though as long as the ED member was honest about it. During this period Awakened was more than amiable to any ED receiving a flag, no matter the characters "status".
| Quote: | | This agreement was all about helping each other - ED got the flags, the other guilds got free access to the mobs needed for advancing. No more Emperor style c**k-blocking on the tier-1-2-3 mobs. |
Your right, and as it currently stands the vast majority of TM guilds still benefit from both ED and Awakened spending less time in Tier 1, 2 and 3. If they wish to continue receiving loot from these bosses then it would most certainly be in their best interest to flag a few stragglers.
As far as Emperor goes... are you referring to ED cockblocking or Awakened? We both "protected" the spawn to outfit members in VT. There is always a fine line between taking care of ones guild members to insure progression and conversely to appear "selfish" to the entire server. All I can say is that its regrettable that Verant made the path to success so linear. Emperor is no longer a priority with Awakened (he might die to us but we will NEVER camp him again) and we wish the next guild all the best.
| Quote: | | To say TA never benefitted from this agreement is at least to be misinformed....at worst and outright lie. |
The agreement was beneficial to both parties involved during the first few months. However, circumstances have changed and this is no longer the case as outlined above.
I think it is important to note that there is a distinct difference between and "individuals actions" and a "guilds actions". Every guild has a small faction that simply find it more amusing and enjoyable to grief other players. Meeatsu's cryptic comment is regarding several of ED's members proclaiming that Awakened intentionally crashed Sol Ro after our RZ kill. After spending 2 months of back flagging ED members (with nothing in return) now Awakened has to be subjected to vague, baseless and hollow accusations of intentionally crashing zones. Although these were "individual actions" on ED's part they can still have guild repurcussions, hence the termination of the back-flagging agreement.
I would like to take this time to apologize to all MoKB. Along similar lines, a member of Awakened was extremely rude to a MoKB officer. His actions were innappropriate and we hope that you will see this as an individual action and not representative of Awakened as a whole. Whether MoKB decides to flag Awakened members in the future is certainly up to all of you but we will continue to flag your members irregardless of your decision. Again, the Officers of Awakened apologize for this regrettable incident.
Volx, I certainly hope that we can find a way to co-exist in Elemental Planes together. I know the track record of both guilds leaves little to be desired but I still think that its possible to "get along". We would be more than cordial in revisiting the flagging issue if we can find a way to divide up the "time investment" more equatably.
Awakened would also be willing to discuss any type of rotation to alleviate us "banging heads" in Elementals. Awakened and ED are both highly skilled guilds with great players/leadership. If you would rather everything be a race then we will most certainly be up to the task... but wouldn't be better for all we if could find a way around that? If at any time you wish to discuss this or any other matter please feel free to contact me in game.
Last edited by Garshu on 03/31/03 - 15:13; edited 1 time in total
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Volx
Fresh Meat
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 5
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 15:08 Post subject:
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I never said the agreement wasn't lopsided from the standpoint of flags given and received. Was it advantageous to us? Sure. Was it advantageous to the other guilds? I would say yes because it got us out of their way. Once the agreements were in place, I don't recall ED racing or blocking any other guild for a Tier-1-2-3 mob. We could have blown Behemoth, HoH trials, Bertox for a month or two before they fixed the obvious stupidity of how those events are triggered. We didn't. We moved on and left the older content for others to enjoy. I think that was the major win for everyone here...unless you want to return to the races we all used to enjoy so much =D
As for the other friction between TA and ED, I'm not going to sugar coat that either. There will always be tension and animosity between whoever is the top of the server and those coming up to challenge them. This happens on every server.
Oh, and Brash (whoever you are), you're wrong. I honestly wanted to thank everyone (even TA), for their help in backflagging. I think during this expansion (at least after the agreements were put in place), the server has been a slightly happier place then it was in the past. At least the number of volatile situations that we've witnessed or been participants in has been DRASTICALLY lower than the past expansions. If you want to go back to the good old days, I'm sure it won't take much convincing to get ED steamrolling people once again. /shrug
-Volx
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Finrazel
Total Newbie
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 15
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 15:09 Post subject:
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You are all missing the point really. ED could of easily went and reflagged members/recruits/alts on those tier 1/2/3 mobs. The flagging arrangement was set up so that we didnt have to go back and keep the smaller guilds from gettting loot/zone acces for their guild, simplely for one or 2 of the members..
You say all you got was maybe 3 flags out of the deal.. well your a moron sorry.. Every single flag you got from the mobs ED didnt go back and pharm were what you really got out of the agreement, and as a consiquence of that would still prolly be pharming tier one boss's to flag up members, i.e. also causing guilds like SA/Pak so on and so fourth, to have to keep waiting for their chance at flagging/loot mobs
Personally i dont think it has anything to do with the above stated reasons to why TA backed out of the flagging agreement but i will just keep that to maself ^.~
~ Finrazel cleric of Enlightened Dark ~
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Breiza
Total Newbie
Joined: 18 Oct 2002
Posts: 43
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 15:50 Post subject:
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Fin, I don't think you could possibly be more arrogant than you came off with that post.
"Gimme your lunch money or I'll beat you up" comes to mind. Guess we should all feel lucky that we got to sit at the lunch table but without a black eye?
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TmCleric
Luke Warm
Joined: 28 Dec 2002
Posts: 152
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 15:52 Post subject:
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No kidding, just because you CAN doesn't make it RIGHT
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Catranizi
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 910
Location: Montreal, Canada
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 16:00 Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Every single flag you got from the mobs ED didnt go back and pharm were what you really got out of the agreement, and as a consiquence of that would still prolly be pharming tier one boss's to flag up members |
Unless you haven't noticed, all PoP bosses except a very few exceptions (MM) are on 2-3 days timer, which kinda invalidates the whole rarity and control of spawns. While other guilds will see PoP tier 1-2-3 loot as godly, we see it as standard loot, as does ED probably. ie, someone will want it but it's nothing to get excited with.
PoP tier 1-2-3 bosses are a chore, not a rewarding event for ED and Awakened. I think the current situation arose from the fact that one guild went their way to reduce the chores, and the other didn't.
Volx. While there are a lot of servers that have much worse guild situations (Tunare comes to mind), there are quite a few that work on rotations and complete harmony. There's one server where Sleeper is still asleep, and that would require a certain level of harmony that TM can't dream of. I originally came from the Innoruuk server where my original toon was a member of Legions of Darkness. You could compare Ashen Vendetta and Legions of Darkness to ED and Awakened, however there is basically no tension. Actually, from old friends, both guild are currently working together to beat the Rathe. Saying that tension is necessary is not true.
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Finrazel
Total Newbie
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 15
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 16:09 Post subject:
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Lol Breiza =) Its not arrogeance its the truth. If ED, and TA for that matter, had spent all the time back flagging the ppl/alts/mains/recruits.. whatever the case maybe.. It would of slowed down the progression of other guilds in the planes. Not spacifically pointing a finger at awakened, but any of the guilds that wanted their go at new zones/loot from those mobs.
Catranizi is right though since the mobs are on a short respawn timer, it wouldnt take long for those guilds to make up for the time ED/TA/Numi spend killing those tier 1/2/3 mobs, but that doesnt change the fact that they would of had to wait longer..
No one forced ne one to agree to any flag arrangements, so i dont see how it is gimme your lunch money or ill beat you up ;p It was set up so there could be harmony, and EVERYONE could get fair shot at the loot/flags from those mobs. ED hasnt played dirty with any of these agreements, or any of these mobs. So i dont understand why you are acting as if ED is bullying ppl around =/ oh well ^.^ <3<3 bre fo evah
~ Finrazel cleric of Enlightened Dark ~
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Derringer
Luke Warm
Joined: 25 Oct 2002
Posts: 384
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 16:09 Post subject:
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Let me just say that I highly doubt any of you, or any of the guilds in our power level, would farm alot of Tier1/2 content.
Most of it is painful, has fast spawns, and now they've fixed most of what you used to be able to easily do to blow them, so you'd actually have to kill them to blow them as spawns.
We have a few PoP spawns on farm status, because they can be done quickly, and we've identified something we want to farm, etc., but the vast majority of Tier 1 PoP Ubers, we don't even go back and farm... most of the time your shooting to progress in PoP, and the items these mobs drop, although decent, are not often worth the risk-reward of getting them.
I think it is slightly true that flagging agreements stop back-feeding, but I would submit that it probably wouldn't naturally occur otherwise very much either, due to the nature of some/alot of the flag mobs.
Of course, if you hated the guild directly below you enough, you could do many things to delay the inevitable, I spose... I just don't think it would be all that productive.
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Brash
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 3958
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 16:14 Post subject:
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ED is full of shit here. They say they are doing you a favior by staying off tier 1-3 mobs. Well f*****g A , ED can't be everywhere all the time. They can't camp every mob in PoP while at the same time working hard at the elemental planes. Not to mention, I'm sure ED members would not have been real enthused or motivated to race all the guilds for shit loot on mob_001 just to get bots, recruits and some stragglers thier flags.
Sure, now and then ED would have killed some tier 1-3 mobs to get the flags but it would not be this strangle hold they are trying to make it out as. Really they bluffed , all the guilds bit and did all thier work for them.
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Meeatsu
Sir Postalot
Joined: 10 Nov 2002
Posts: 1083
Location: St. Louis, Mo
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Posted: 03/31/03 - 16:16 Post subject:
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| Quote: | | If ED, and TA for that matter, had spent all the time back flagging the ppl/alts/mains/recruits.. whatever the case maybe |
Actually Fin, we have spent the past 3 weeks going over every single piece of PoP content to insure every member/recruit/some alts are correctly flagged for Elemental access/ready for SolRO. Thats why we haven't done much of anything in the 3 Elementals we currently have access to. Nothing worse then leaving people behind
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