f**k al qaida, anyone who doesn't want war can look at this
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Syke
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2976
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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 Posted: 05/11/04 - 20:22 Post subject:
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| Nuldaan wrote: | | Syke wrote: |
So the only options are War, and economic sanctions? There is absolutely nothing else that could have been done to remove Saddam from power?
Sanctions would only be detrimental to our cause, just as the pictures of butt humping Iraqi's in the American fortified prison was detrimental to our cause. Economic sanctions aren't something to be relied on, as they aren't always effective.
I still think there is room to believe that there could have been more to consider before the war was started. Like I said, war was and is definitely an option, it's just one of the most brutal ones you can decide on, and may not be any more effective than economic sanctions. I don't think Bush tried to do anything besides pick a war with Iraq, that's one of the main reasons why I even defend the idea that more could have been considered.
"Leftists" cling to this idea, not genocide, not unpatriotism, just this one fundamental idea. So stop stereotyping them into your own f****d up view. |
Syke, I have to be honest with you. This argument annoys me to no end. This argument is always trotted out during these discussions. It's easy to say there must be a better way yet no one has ever offered one. If you disagree with the method Bush chose, how would you go about doing it? Better yet, find me one solution that works from anyone. It doesn't have to be your idea, it just needs to be viable.
The world tried UN sanctions. We tried weapons inspections. We tried humanitarian aid. Nothing worked. It's time he was gone. Ten years of attempted and failed peaceful solutions is long enough. Saddam had his chance. Diplomacy had it's chance. We have no other option when diplomacy fails. War is all that's left. |
This argument annoys you because it has the most validity, and the least amount of validity at the same time.
If someone doesn't back up this view with a viable option, then the whole idea is rejected altogether, rather than pondered and thought over to see if anyone can come up with a solution.
I may not be able to come up with a viable solution on my own, but it is something I think about daily. The people better suited to find a viable solution to this problem are in power right now, and they have different answers to the problems. Answers that may not be the right or most effective altogether..
But like Confused said, I am not a sheep, and therefore I will not allow myself to disregard any other course of action simply because the people in power decided to go down this route.
I still believe that there were other options..
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Pankrat
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 603
Location: Land of Paranoia
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Posted: 05/11/04 - 20:30 Post subject:
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This is why we are at war in Iraq: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13323
This has always been the real reason. This is not new news, this is confirmation of old news (and there is alot more out there - but it won't get any play). Too many powerful people from both the Bush 1 Admin and Clinton Admin blew it too big to ever admit the connection - so they will downplay it, deny it, and cover it up. The media will gladly go along as they are anti-Bush and do not want to legitimize the war in Iraq because it doesn't fit their agenda (get him out of office, and get Kerry or fill-in-the-blank Dem in).
On to the benefits of the war in Iraq that are sometimes mistated as reasons:
Are we helping liberate millions of people, did we take out one of the most sadistic evil mother f*****s on the planet, did we create a forward military base in the middle east, did we send a message to the world that we aren't taking shit from anyone anymore, have we killed hundres to thousands of terrorists, did we neutralize a major threat to the region, and did we secure some nice oil for ourselves?
HELL YES to all of the above.
But again, none of those were ever the real reason...
Wake up people WW3 started in 1993 World Trade Center 1 (and has be fomenting since the the late 70's).
Say it with me now - the war in Iraq is part of the war on terror. Repeat it over and over until you get it (I'm preaching to the choir I know).
If we don't stop acting like p*****s we are going to lose the war on terror - and guess who the Islamo-fascists are going to kill first?
They will kill the very same people who are now championing their cause now (either inadvertantly or outright) FIRST. Get it? Of course not...
Here is a list of groups of people they hate: Women (and especially those who want to give women any rights outside wearing berka's, being **** slaves, and not speaking to unless spoken to first), gays, jews, Christians, Hindus, atheists, and EVERYONE who doesn't subscribe to their f****d up world view and the twisted version of Islam that they practice. They don't like personal liberties and expression of dissent much either.
/rant off
Oh ya in regards to WMD, the VX gas that was in the thwareted chemical car bomb attack in Jordan (would likely have killed 20-80K people), King Abdullah himself and many experts agree believe it came from Iraq by way of Syria...
I'm guessing it will take an attack of that magnitude in the US for the pacifistic laid down and walk over me types to get that we are at war and fighting for our survival. Hope not...
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 05/11/04 - 20:31 Post subject:
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| Syke wrote: | | Nuldaan wrote: | | Syke wrote: |
So the only options are War, and economic sanctions? There is absolutely nothing else that could have been done to remove Saddam from power?
Sanctions would only be detrimental to our cause, just as the pictures of butt humping Iraqi's in the American fortified prison was detrimental to our cause. Economic sanctions aren't something to be relied on, as they aren't always effective.
I still think there is room to believe that there could have been more to consider before the war was started. Like I said, war was and is definitely an option, it's just one of the most brutal ones you can decide on, and may not be any more effective than economic sanctions. I don't think Bush tried to do anything besides pick a war with Iraq, that's one of the main reasons why I even defend the idea that more could have been considered.
"Leftists" cling to this idea, not genocide, not unpatriotism, just this one fundamental idea. So stop stereotyping them into your own f****d up view. |
Syke, I have to be honest with you. This argument annoys me to no end. This argument is always trotted out during these discussions. It's easy to say there must be a better way yet no one has ever offered one. If you disagree with the method Bush chose, how would you go about doing it? Better yet, find me one solution that works from anyone. It doesn't have to be your idea, it just needs to be viable.
The world tried UN sanctions. We tried weapons inspections. We tried humanitarian aid. Nothing worked. It's time he was gone. Ten years of attempted and failed peaceful solutions is long enough. Saddam had his chance. Diplomacy had it's chance. We have no other option when diplomacy fails. War is all that's left. |
This argument annoys you because it has the most validity, and the least amount of validity at the same time.
If someone doesn't back up this view with a viable option, then the whole idea is rejected altogether, rather than pondered and thought over to see if anyone can come up with a solution.
I may not be able to come up with a viable solution on my own, but it is something I think about daily. The people better suited to find a viable solution to this problem are in power right now, and they have different answers to the problems. Answers that may not be the right or most effective altogether..
But like Confused said, I am not a sheep, and therefore I will not allow myself to disregard any other course of action simply because the people in power decided to go down this route.
I still believe that there were other options.. |
ROFL. YES this option is disregarded because in the year that has passed, I have yet to hear a single idea. That's 100,000 potential violent murders on your ideology's shoulders...scum.
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Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 1179
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Posted: 05/11/04 - 20:33 Post subject:
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| Syke wrote: | This argument annoys you because it has the most validity, and the least amount of validity at the same time.
If someone doesn't back up this view with a viable option, then the whole idea is rejected altogether, rather than pondered and thought over to see if anyone can come up with a solution.
I may not be able to come up with a viable solution on my own, but it is something I think about daily. The people better suited to find a viable solution to this problem are in power right now, and they have different answers to the problems. Answers that may not be the right or most effective altogether..
But like Confused said, I am not a sheep, and therefore I will not allow myself to disregard any other course of action simply because the people in power decided to go down this route.
I still believe that there were other options.. |
I didn't say YOU needed to come up with the idea. I said find me a viable idea. Everyone against the war is so sure that there is a better way. Well, share it with us because the rest of us sure as hell don't see it. And let me be clear on this point. There has been no viable alternative offered...ever.
That's why this argument has no validity. It's not used as a means to show that there is a better solution. It's simply used to bring down someone else for acting in a way that they disagree with. You're not saying I disagree with the war because we had other options. You're saying you disagree with the war because you disagree with war.
That argument annoys me because you're arguing your convictions. You're not offering solutions. You're only trying to tear down someone else's. And your argument has no real support. Your sole attempt at support is 'There must be a better way.' It's an argument that is all appearance and no substance.
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 05/11/04 - 20:36 Post subject:
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Nobody should drive a car because there is a better way.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 05/11/04 - 20:45 Post subject:
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| Maldek wrote: | | bush & comp never gave a shit about anything but oil. if it wasnt for morale standards we would have just carpet-bombed iraq and paid halliburton to pave the place flat. |
haha irl
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 05/11/04 - 23:06 Post subject:
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| Maelstrom wrote: | | Roskoe wrote: | | Maelstrom wrote: | I would not go in Irak to help them rebuild cause i'm not stupid.
Soldiers get killed every day so how stupid do civilians need to be to even put a feet in such a dangerous area? |
Because some people want to help rebuild that shithole instead of sitting online complaining about every little piece of shit that goes on over there but doesnt have the balls to step foot within 3 countries of it. |
Thats what I said cause they are stupid. takes a real moron to enter a country that you are not welcome.
But if you like the idea so much feel free to visit Irak. |
You are an idiot. The people who are over there as civilians trying to build Iraq are very courageous people. But then again you are not paying US taxes, and not in Iraq, so you know what your f*****g opinion means? Something around Jack and Shit.
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Luturb
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 4042
Location: Livermore, California
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 10:57 Post subject:
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There's always other options. We could have sacrificed a goat a day to a statue of bill gates, but I doubt it would have gotten the job done.
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Haroun Zehra
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1235
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 11:01 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: | | You are an idiot. The people who are over there as civilians trying to build Iraq are very courageous people. But then again you are not paying US taxes, and not in Iraq, so you know what your f*****g opinion means? Something around Jack and Shit. |
Frax is right. After all, isn't Haliburton spanish for "courageous"?
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 11:03 Post subject:
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| Haroun Zehra wrote: | | Frax wrote: | | You are an idiot. The people who are over there as civilians trying to build Iraq are very courageous people. But then again you are not paying US taxes, and not in Iraq, so you know what your f*****g opinion means? Something around Jack and Shit. |
Frax is right. After all, isn't Haliburton spanish for "courageous"? |
It's french for "Canadians suck because they leech off America and do nothing but complain about things which they could not themselves accomplish because they are too effeminate".
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sinrakin
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 7044
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 11:11 Post subject:
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Most of the military who are over there are courageous people. The journalists are courageous people. The civilians who are over there are there because they're making 2-3 times what they could make over here.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 11:30 Post subject:
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| sinrakin wrote: | | Most of the military who are over there are courageous people. The journalists are courageous people. The civilians who are over there are there because they're making 2-3 times what they could make over here. |
Yes far be it from people who live in a capitalist society try to help themselves. Those greedy f*****s wanting to make their life a little better.
I guess you'd rather have mile long bread lines in the middle of winter?
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 11:31 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: | | sinrakin wrote: | | Most of the military who are over there are courageous people. The journalists are courageous people. The civilians who are over there are there because they're making 2-3 times what they could make over here. |
Yes far be it from people who live in a capitalist society try to help themselves. Those greedy f*****s wanting to make their life a little better.
I guess you'd rather have mile long bread lines in the middle of winter? |
Don't all liberals?
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 11:38 Post subject:
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| Confused wrote: | | Frax wrote: | | sinrakin wrote: | | Most of the military who are over there are courageous people. The journalists are courageous people. The civilians who are over there are there because they're making 2-3 times what they could make over here. |
Yes far be it from people who live in a capitalist society try to help themselves. Those greedy f*****s wanting to make their life a little better.
I guess you'd rather have mile long bread lines in the middle of winter? |
Don't all liberals? |
As long as they don't have to stand in them of course!
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Yellow Journalist
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 1973
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 12:01 Post subject:
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Those people have alot of gaul. This video infuriates me.
Is that Iraqi television? What kind of morals do those people have to show that video over their tv network. Young people see the beheading of an American along with their idiotic speech and think its ok to rebel and go with the cause that they are representing. That isnt right. You cant expect to eliminate leaders and iraqi military personnel and rebels of that country (terrorists). Know why? because when eliminated/killed there will be repercussions by sons and daughters and family WHO LOVE ---> our targets, and now for them to see an act on tv like that , that just satisfies them and escalates things, and supports wrong doing, For them this video MAKES IT OK... its not ok.
At this point I dont care if a select few of our military humilated their people in all honesty. f**k them...
They should sort out their own problems. We should exercise some of our Nuclear technology on that country.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 12:24 Post subject:
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| Yellow Journalist wrote: |
At this point I dont care if a select few of our military humilated their people in all honesty. f**k them...
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Actually it was filmed by the terrorists themselves and posted on their internet website: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/12/iraq.berg/index.html
And you SHOULD care how our servicemen/women conduct themselves, its what seperates us from most of the world. Of course we have a few bad apples. The distinction is that we do try our best to weed them out and punish them when they cross the line.
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Syke
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2976
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 13:08 Post subject:
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| Nuldaan wrote: | | Syke wrote: | This argument annoys you because it has the most validity, and the least amount of validity at the same time.
If someone doesn't back up this view with a viable option, then the whole idea is rejected altogether, rather than pondered and thought over to see if anyone can come up with a solution.
I may not be able to come up with a viable solution on my own, but it is something I think about daily. The people better suited to find a viable solution to this problem are in power right now, and they have different answers to the problems. Answers that may not be the right or most effective altogether..
But like Confused said, I am not a sheep, and therefore I will not allow myself to disregard any other course of action simply because the people in power decided to go down this route.
I still believe that there were other options.. |
I didn't say YOU needed to come up with the idea. I said find me a viable idea. Everyone against the war is so sure that there is a better way. Well, share it with us because the rest of us sure as hell don't see it. And let me be clear on this point. There has been no viable alternative offered...ever.
That's why this argument has no validity. It's not used as a means to show that there is a better solution. It's simply used to bring down someone else for acting in a way that they disagree with. You're not saying I disagree with the war because we had other options. You're saying you disagree with the war because you disagree with war.
That argument annoys me because you're arguing your convictions. You're not offering solutions. You're only trying to tear down someone else's. And your argument has no real support. Your sole attempt at support is 'There must be a better way.' It's an argument that is all appearance and no substance. |
Well, f**k...Put me in power and I WILL come up with different and better solutions. Right now my convictions are all I have to work with. I don't know much about the history of the world, the history of our relationship with the middle east and the rest of the world. The more versed I do become in these things, the more I will be able to come up with a viable solution.
The more you argue against my convictions, the more you're trying to tear me down. So this works both ways and you should know that better than anyone, since you're making the argument.
You really think there was no other option offered? ...The f*****g President and his administration make all the decisions, and whatever they decide on is what they decide on, and that doesn't necessarily mean they are the right choices or the ONLY choices. There MUST have been other ideas or options to take to help diffuse the entire Terrorist situation, but the one option Bush and a lot of Americans agreed with was war.
Does that make it right?
Does that make it the only option?
Wouldn't logic tell you that there are more options to be considered in a situation like this? More characteristics of the Middle East to be considered before going to war? More premeditated outcomes adressed before taking drastic measures? More of our history with affairs in the middle east taken into account?
Did it really need to get to the point where our people are getting their heads cut off?
Do you really think I'm trying to tear you down because you disagree with me? If so, please rethink this and reread what I'm saying and what I believe in before you judge me as such.
I'm not trying to tear you down, I'm trying to show that we can work towards a better solution, because all logic dictates that there is more than one solution to this problem. I truly feel that there is a better way, even though I do not know exactly what it entails.
All I'm trying to do here is show you a different peron's opinion. If I tear you down in the process, I'm terribly sorry, but that's not what I ever intended to do. Because hell...if you're right, you're right. I'm not here to argue, I'm here to talk about an important f*****g issue that I happen to be fairly passionate about. People dying isn't my cup of tea, and any way to prevent that I am all for. (and stfu Confused, I know exactly what you're thinking you rat b*****d, so don't even post it.)
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 13:27 Post subject:
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The President had the legal backing of the US congress.
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Syke
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2976
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 13:34 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: | | The President had the legal backing of the US congress. |
And?
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 13:35 Post subject:
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Was just disproving your point here:
| Quote: | | The f*****g President and his administration make all the decisions |
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Syke
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2976
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 13:39 Post subject:
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Would the US congress have made the final decision?
Without the President and his Administration making the decision to go to war, the congress' backing wouldn't even exist.
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Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 1179
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 16:06 Post subject:
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| Syke wrote: | Well, f**k...Put me in power and I WILL come up with different and better solutions. Right now my convictions are all I have to work with. I don't know much about the history of the world, the history of our relationship with the middle east and the rest of the world. The more versed I do become in these things, the more I will be able to come up with a viable solution.
The more you argue against my convictions, the more you're trying to tear me down. So this works both ways and you should know that better than anyone, since you're making the argument.
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Syke, this is representative of the error in your thinking. Regardless of whether you realize it or not, this is arrogance. Why do you think you could succeed where the rest of the world has failed? Government leaders from across the globe have been trying to find a peaceful solution to Saddam for 10 years and they have failed. All the power of all those governments could not succeed in this. The best they could come up with was a failed plan of economic sanctions and weapons inspections. All the anti-war protesters in the world are continually saying there must be a better way yet they have not offered a viable solution either. (Viable is the keyword by the way, more sanctions or inspections are not viable. They haven't worked in 10 years, why would they suddenly start working now?) That is literally hundred of thousands of people spending millions of hours trying to find a non-war solution for over a decade. Perhaps it's time to realize that war is our best answer.
As for your convictions, I'm not arguing them. You are arguing them. You'd be surprised to find out that most of us that support the war in Iraq do so only grudgingly because we realize it is the best option available to us. That was the point of my last post. Saying "I hate war" is like saying "I support clean air" or "I support equal rights". Of course, you do. I do too. 99.9% of the country does. The problem is, it's not an argument. It's a statement of belief. How does your argument help us find an answer? It doesn't.
In fact, it's downright insulting and, forgive me for saying this, it's a typical PC argument. The implication is that anyone who disagrees with you must support it. Do you honestly believe that most of the country would choose war over a viable, peaceful solution? Because that's what your argument implies. Stop trying to take the moral high ground and look at the problem.
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Luturb
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 4042
Location: Livermore, California
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 16:18 Post subject:
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Nuldaan,
All those people are idiots. Obviously.
Sincerely,
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Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 1179
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 16:35 Post subject:
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| Luturb wrote: | Nuldaan,
All those people are idiots. Obviously.
Sincerely, |
haha. It makes perfect sense now! 
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Rhyming
Fresh Meat
Joined: 12 May 2004
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Syke
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2976
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 17:56 Post subject:
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| Nuldaan wrote: |
Syke, this is representative of the error in your thinking.
Regardless of whether you realize it or not, this is arrogance.
Why do you think you could succeed where the rest of the world has failed? |
If I were to take this into account, and agree with you that this is completely arrogant, then how would anyone get anywhere and how would anyone's goals be reached? I have some strange f****d up idea that somehow I can maybe help get people to realize that war isn't the only answer, maybe pull our people out of Iraq and try to mend things in a way that is not as deadly. Spare lives possibly..that's the ultimate goal I want to reach, and I'm not saying no one else that argues that war is the anwer doesn't want this either. In no way do I imply that..but without my conviction, without the proper motivation to reach this goal (you call it arrogance, I call it trying to find a way to help) how the hell would it even get done? Why do I think I could succeed? Because I have the will and the need to do it, that's why.
Why do you think I will fail?
| Quote: | | Government leaders from across the globe have been trying to find a peaceful solution to Saddam for 10 years and they have failed. All the power of all those governments could not succeed in this. The best they could come up with was a failed plan of economic sanctions and weapons inspections. All the anti-war protesters in the world are continually saying there must be a better way yet they have not offered a viable solution either. (Viable is the keyword by the way, more sanctions or inspections are not viable. They haven't worked in 10 years, why would they suddenly start working now?) |
You're absolutely right, sanctions are probably not the answer. That's already been made abundantly clear as that has failed us in the past already, and not only in this occassion. I am not saying that Sanctions are the answer, either...I'm saying, besides sanctions which anger the people and only fuel the hatred for us under Saddam's propaganda, something else could be considered. Right now I have only small, half-thought out ideas on how it could be done, but I don't have the knowledge or the power that the American government has to research the answers. One day I may be able to contribute a solid solution, but then it will be too late. ...I believe that our government leaders could have chosen to consider some other measures to take before going head-over-heels into this war on terrorism. I believe those people that you say don't have "viable" options may have had them, but were possibly dismissed, muddle out and never far reached, because there was not enough support backing it etc...
| Quote: | | As for your convictions, I'm not arguing them. You are arguing them. You'd be surprised to find out that most of us that support the war in Iraq do so only grudgingly because we realize it is the best option available to us. That was the point of my last post. Saying "I hate war" is like saying "I support clean air" or "I support equal rights". Of course, you do. I do too. 99.9% of the country does. The problem is, it's not an argument. It's a statement of belief. How does your argument help us find an answer? It doesn't. |
I'm not just saying "I hate war", and in fact it's a lot more complicated than that. I'm saying, I can help in some way shape or form if somehow a viable solution can be reached. Instead of sitting here coming to the conclusion that what we are doing is absolutely the best thing to do, I am trying myself to come up with other options, with questioning the leadership of our country. I want to do something that A LOT of Americans are too lazy to do or feel like they can't accomplish. Instead they follow the media bias, or follow their friend's/families' bias blindly and say and do as they do. Well I'm not about to sit around and let the country lead me blindly into a war that I don't feel we should be fighting yet. And f**k off for telling me that my beliefs wont find us an answer. If I didn't have this belief, then the answers I'm searching for will never ever be considered or reached. You're pretty hard pressed to shoot my ideas down, to call me arrogant...to say my way is the way to fail, since no one has done anything worthwhile with this situation. Way to be a positive thinker...
| Quote: | | In fact, it's downright insulting and, forgive me for saying this, it's a typical PC argument. The implication is that anyone who disagrees with you must support it. Do you honestly believe that most of the country would choose war over a viable, peaceful solution? Because that's what your argument implies. Stop trying to take the moral high ground and look at the problem. |
I'm being insulting? You're just deriving this out of my argument and not looking at what I'm tryinig to say. You're finding fault in what I say and are instead backing the decisions that the government has made. That's fine, you can agree with the course of action that has taken place in Iraq. But to say that me making the argument that there could have been more precautions taken to possibly avoid innocent deaths is insulting to anyone else who disagrees with me is f*****g lame.
Call it typical PC argument, call it whatever the f**k you want, but it is my belief and until proven otherwise, I will stick to it. The fact that our government is doing what it is doesn't change my mind. It is however, an influence in my decision, but I'm not letting them decide for me. The decisions may have already been made, but there is still room to learn from mistakes, and there is still room to help.
I don't give a shit how PC I sound.
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Pankrat
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 603
Location: Land of Paranoia
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 18:00 Post subject:
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Sykle, you asked earlier on in this post if war/force was the only way to remove Sadam Hussein. Sadly the answer is yes. And it's the same answer for any dictator.
The only other option is to ask him to leave nicely. He killed 300K to 1 million of his countrymen to stay in power, what makes you think you could convince him to step down?
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Goraz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3736
Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 18:13 Post subject:
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| Maldek wrote: | | bush & comp never gave a shit about anything but oil. if it wasnt for morale standards we would have just carpet-bombed iraq and paid halliburton to pave the place flat. |
is this why gas prices have just gone up another .06?
Dumbfuck.
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Guest
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 18:18 Post subject:
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| Syke wrote: | | Nuldaan wrote: |
Syke, this is representative of the error in your thinking.
Regardless of whether you realize it or not, this is arrogance.
Why do you think you could succeed where the rest of the world has failed? |
If I were to take this into account, and agree with you that this is completely arrogant, then how would anyone get anywhere and how would anyone's goals be reached? I have some strange f****d up idea that somehow I can maybe help get people to realize that war isn't the only answer, maybe pull our people out of Iraq and try to mend things in a way that is not as deadly. Spare lives possibly..that's the ultimate goal I want to reach, and I'm not saying no one else that argues that war is the anwer doesn't want this either. In no way do I imply that..but without my conviction, without the proper motivation to reach this goal (you call it arrogance, I call it trying to find a way to help) how the hell would it even get done? Why do I think I could succeed? Because I have the will and the need to do it, that's why.
Why do you think I will fail?
| Quote: | | Government leaders from across the globe have been trying to find a peaceful solution to Saddam for 10 years and they have failed. All the power of all those governments could not succeed in this. The best they could come up with was a failed plan of economic sanctions and weapons inspections. All the anti-war protesters in the world are continually saying there must be a better way yet they have not offered a viable solution either. (Viable is the keyword by the way, more sanctions or inspections are not viable. They haven't worked in 10 years, why would they suddenly start working now?) |
You're absolutely right, sanctions are probably not the answer. That's already been made abundantly clear as that has failed us in the past already, and not only in this occassion. I am not saying that Sanctions are the answer, either...I'm saying, besides sanctions which anger the people and only fuel the hatred for us under Saddam's propaganda, something else could be considered. Right now I have only small, half-thought out ideas on how it could be done, but I don't have the knowledge or the power that the American government has to research the answers. One day I may be able to contribute a solid solution, but then it will be too late. ...I believe that our government leaders could have chosen to consider some other measures to take before going head-over-heels into this war on terrorism. I believe those people that you say don't have "viable" options may have had them, but were possibly dismissed, muddle out and never far reached, because there was not enough support backing it etc...
| Quote: | | As for your convictions, I'm not arguing them. You are arguing them. You'd be surprised to find out that most of us that support the war in Iraq do so only grudgingly because we realize it is the best option available to us. That was the point of my last post. Saying "I hate war" is like saying "I support clean air" or "I support equal rights". Of course, you do. I do too. 99.9% of the country does. The problem is, it's not an argument. It's a statement of belief. How does your argument help us find an answer? It doesn't. |
I'm not just saying "I hate war", and in fact it's a lot more complicated than that. I'm saying, I can help in some way shape or form if somehow a viable solution can be reached. Instead of sitting here coming to the conclusion that what we are doing is absolutely the best thing to do, I am trying myself to come up with other options, with questioning the leadership of our country. I want to do something that A LOT of Americans are too lazy to do or feel like they can't accomplish. Instead they follow the media bias, or follow their friend's/families' bias blindly and say and do as they do. Well I'm not about to sit around and let the country lead me blindly into a war that I don't feel we should be fighting yet. And f**k off for telling me that my beliefs wont find us an answer. If I didn't have this belief, then the answers I'm searching for will never ever be considered or reached. You're pretty hard pressed to shoot my ideas down, to call me arrogant...to say my way is the way to fail, since no one has done anything worthwhile with this situation. Way to be a positive thinker...
| Quote: | | In fact, it's downright insulting and, forgive me for saying this, it's a typical PC argument. The implication is that anyone who disagrees with you must support it. Do you honestly believe that most of the country would choose war over a viable, peaceful solution? Because that's what your argument implies. Stop trying to take the moral high ground and look at the problem. |
I'm being insulting? You're just deriving this out of my argument and not looking at what I'm tryinig to say. You're finding fault in what I say and are instead backing the decisions that the government has made. That's fine, you can agree with the course of action that has taken place in Iraq. But to say that me making the argument that there could have been more precautions taken to possibly avoid innocent deaths is insulting to anyone else who disagrees with me is f*****g lame.
Call it typical PC argument, call it whatever the f**k you want, but it is my belief and until proven otherwise, I will stick to it. The fact that our government is doing what it is doesn't change my mind. It is however, an influence in my decision, but I'm not letting them decide for me. The decisions may have already been made, but there is still room to learn from mistakes, and there is still room to help.
I don't give a shit how PC I sound. |
Idiot.
(I have read your other posts, so I know you are an idiot, no need to read all the above gibberish.)
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Syke
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2976
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: 05/12/04 - 18:24 Post subject:
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| Kbarr wrote: | | Syke wrote: | | Nuldaan wrote: |
Syke, this is representative of the error in your thinking.
Regardless of whether you realize it or not, this is arrogance.
Why do you think you could succeed where the rest of the world has failed? |
If I were to take this into account, and agree with you that this is completely arrogant, then how would anyone get anywhere and how would anyone's goals be reached? I have some strange f****d up idea that somehow I can maybe help get people to realize that war isn't the only answer, maybe pull our people out of Iraq and try to mend things in a way that is not as deadly. Spare lives possibly..that's the ultimate goal I want to reach, and I'm not saying no one else that argues that war is the anwer doesn't want this either. In no way do I imply that..but without my conviction, without the proper motivation to reach this goal (you call it arrogance, I call it trying to find a way to help) how the hell would it even get done? Why do I think I could succeed? Because I have the will and the need to do it, that's why.
Why do you think I will fail?
| Quote: | | Government leaders from across the globe have been trying to find a peaceful solution to Saddam for 10 years and they have failed. All the power of all those governments could not succeed in this. The best they could come up with was a failed plan of economic sanctions and weapons inspections. All the anti-war protesters in the world are continually saying there must be a better way yet they have not offered a viable solution either. (Viable is the keyword by the way, more sanctions or inspections are not viable. They haven't worked in 10 years, why would they suddenly start working now?) |
You're absolutely right, sanctions are probably not the answer. That's already been made abundantly clear as that has failed us in the past already, and not only in this occassion. I am not saying that Sanctions are the answer, either...I'm saying, besides sanctions which anger the people and only fuel the hatred for us under Saddam's propaganda, something else could be considered. Right now I have only small, half-thought out ideas on how it could be done, but I don't have the knowledge or the power that the American government has to research the answers. One day I may be able to contribute a solid solution, but then it will be too late. ...I believe that our government leaders could have chosen to consider some other measures to take before going head-over-heels into this war on terrorism. I believe those people that you say don't have "viable" options may have had them, but were possibly dismissed, muddle out and never far reached, because there was not enough support backing it etc...
| Quote: | | As for your convictions, I'm not arguing them. You are arguing them. You'd be surprised to find out that most of us that support the war in Iraq do so only grudgingly because we realize it is the best option available to us. That was the point of my last post. Saying "I hate war" is like saying "I support clean air" or "I support equal rights". Of course, you do. I do too. 99.9% of the country does. The problem is, it's not an argument. It's a statement of belief. How does your argument help us find an answer? It doesn't. |
I'm not just saying "I hate war", and in fact it's a lot more complicated than that. I'm saying, I can help in some way shape or form if somehow a viable solution can be reached. Instead of sitting here coming to the conclusion that what we are doing is absolutely the best thing to do, I am trying myself to come up with other options, with questioning the leadership of our country. I want to do something that A LOT of Americans are too lazy to do or feel like they can't accomplish. Instead they follow the media bias, or follow their friend's/families' bias blindly and say and do as they do. Well I'm not about to sit around and let the country lead me blindly into a war that I don't feel we should be fighting yet. And f**k off for telling me that my beliefs wont find us an answer. If I didn't have this belief, then the answers I'm searching for will never ever be considered or reached. You're pretty hard pressed to shoot my ideas down, to call me arrogant...to say my way is the way to fail, since no one has done anything worthwhile with this situation. Way to be a positive thinker...
| Quote: | | In fact, it's downright insulting and, forgive me for saying this, it's a typical PC argument. The implication is that anyone who disagrees with you must support it. Do you honestly believe that most of the country would choose war over a viable, peaceful solution? Because that's what your argument implies. Stop trying to take the moral high ground and look at the problem. |
I'm being insulting? You're just deriving this out of my argument and not looking at what I'm tryinig to say. You're finding fault in what I say and are instead backing the decisions that the government has made. That's fine, you can agree with the course of action that has taken place in Iraq. But to say that me making the argument that there could have been more precautions taken to possibly avoid innocent deaths is insulting to anyone else who disagrees with me is f*****g lame.
Call it typical PC argument, call it whatever the f**k you want, but it is my belief and until proven otherwise, I will stick to it. The fact that our government is doing what it is doesn't change my mind. It is however, an influence in my decision, but I'm not letting them decide for me. The decisions may have already been made, but there is still room to learn from mistakes, and there is still room to help.
I don't give a shit how PC I sound. |
Idiot.
(I have read your other posts, so I know you are an idiot, no need to read all the above gibberish.) |
Don't respond to my posts if you have nothing to say besides, "idiot'.
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