a question :: Ultimate MMORPG Gaming Community & Trading Zone

Booker
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2562
Location: Corvallis, Oregon

Posted: 08/27/05 - 03:09 Post subject: a question

discuss.

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Domination
Can't Stop Posting

Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 565
Location: Atlanta, GA

Posted: 08/27/05 - 03:25 Post subject:

If you don't support what our soldiers are dying for, then you really aren't supporting them. When they see their brothers fall, its sorta s****y to say they died for nothing and if you tell them that, what are you supporting? Thats just my opinion tho.

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Okami
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2242
Location: The new board

Posted: 08/27/05 - 04:30 Post subject:

I dont care for the war. But, support their safe return and families.

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Baha
Sir Postalot

Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 1216

Posted: 08/27/05 - 04:42 Post subject:

much respect to the guys out there putting their lives on the line because their country says its whats best.. i just dont agree with this circumstance of whats best

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atarom
Dalai Lama of RealPoor

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 16398
Location: 375th st. Y

Posted: 08/27/05 - 05:36 Post subject:

Saying "I support the troops" Is like saying "I don't want african children to starve to death." No one doesn't support the troops. No one wants children to starve. Correlating the two statements "I support the troops" and "I support the war" is utterly asinine.

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sinrakin
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 7044

Posted: 08/27/05 - 08:31 Post subject:

I support the good ones; they're just doing their jobs. The ones that torture and beat prisoners to death, not so much.

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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers

Posted: 08/27/05 - 09:33 Post subject:

lol

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Baha
Sir Postalot

Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 1216

Posted: 08/27/05 - 12:59 Post subject:

hello thar booker sweetie

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Frehya
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2398

Posted: 08/27/05 - 14:15 Post subject:

its two different things but the Bushies like to go with... "if you're not with us, you're against us". Supporting the troops but being against the war might be too complex of a concept for the black and white thinkers.

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kbarr
RealPoor Jedi

Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 11239
Location: New York, now go fuck off...

Posted: 08/27/05 - 14:33 Post subject:

Frehya wrote:

its two different things but the Bushies like to go with... "if you're not with us, you're against us".

Supporting the troops but being against the war might be too complex of a concept for the black and white thinkers.

Its not complex, its phony.

What you are really saying is you are against the government but don't want to be seen as such. Saying you support the "troops" but not the "war", is double talk.

You liberal scumbags don't want to bee seen as un patriotic. You liberal scumbags are anti military from the get go. Who do you think you are kidding?

You are singing the "I support the troops" song for yourself, so you feel better. You are preaching to the choir.

Do you really think you are fooling people that support the troops AND the war? Do you think you are fooling the troops?

Do you?

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Frehya
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2398

Posted: 08/27/05 - 14:42 Post subject:

you are thinking too simply and negatively. I doubt if it would be productive to spend the time explaining it. btw, I carry military ID.

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kbarr
RealPoor Jedi

Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 11239
Location: New York, now go fuck off...

Posted: 08/27/05 - 15:01 Post subject:

Frehya wrote:

you are thinking too simply and negatively. I doubt if it would be productive to spend the time explaining it.

btw, I carry military ID.

Incorrect, I see the big picture. I am thinking far to expansively for you too follow.

btw, did you know having a military ID in your pocket has nothing to do with liberal scumbag status?

Look, examples.

General Clark, major liberal scumbag who sucked Clintons d**k long before monica.

Randi Rhodes, Air America(liberal radio) she is an ex marine, LOL, and a liberal scumbag with a radio show.

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Rycrias
Luke Warm

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 269
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Posted: 08/27/05 - 15:12 Post subject:

Having worked for Wesley's security detail in Panama, I can say this for Gen. Clark: Hes a nice guy, but yes he is a "liberal scumbag" as Kbarr would say. His wife used to give us home cooked food tho, so its ok.

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Frehya
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2398

Posted: 08/27/05 - 16:25 Post subject:

Kbarr wrote:

Frehya wrote:

you are thinking too simply and negatively. I doubt if it would be productive to spend the time explaining it.

btw, I carry military ID.

Incorrect, I see the big picture. I am thinking far to expansively for you too follow.

btw, did you know having a military ID in your pocket has nothing to do with liberal scumbag status?

Look, examples.

Oh I am sure it doesn't. I would have to care about the term liberal scumbag. Whether being applied to me or anyone else. Its okay that you are a conservative scumbag too. its OKAY!

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kbarr
RealPoor Jedi

Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 11239
Location: New York, now go fuck off...

Posted: 08/27/05 - 16:53 Post subject:

Frehya wrote:

I would have to care about the term liberal scumbag.

Oh, you care:) Or you would not respond.

Wink

And why exactly would you posses a military ID card? Did you find it on the ground and fail to drop it in a mail box? Are you the dependant of someone in the military?

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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952

Posted: 08/27/05 - 16:54 Post subject:

Supporting or opposing the war in Iraq is a matter of opinion and except for election years, no one cares about what you (or I) think. Bush is in charge, he calls the shots. Better luck in 3 years. But whoever cheers at the death of US Soldiers (Ie being "against" the troops) and/or that of civillians (of any country) is a sorry-ass excuse for a human being. That being said, "support our troops" stickers/buttons/condoms truly are moronic. It goes without saying that you don't wish harm to anyone risking their lives for their country - even if you don't agree with the decissions of the Commander in Chief. Raising awareness of troop support is about as needed as an amendement banning the burning of flags - not like there's a rampage of flag burning and troop harrassing going on that no one is aware of.

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kbarr
RealPoor Jedi

Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 11239
Location: New York, now go fuck off...

Posted: 08/27/05 - 16:59 Post subject:

Soriak wrote:

Supporting or opposing the war in Iraq is a matter of opinion and except for election years, no one cares about what you (or I) think. Bush is in charge, he calls the shots. Better luck in 3 years.

But whoever cheers at the death of US Soldiers (Ie being "against" the troops) and/or that of civillians (of any country) is a sorry-ass excuse for a human being.

That being said, "support our troops" stickers/buttons/condoms truly are moronic. It goes without saying that you don't wish harm to anyone risking their lives for their country - even if you don't agree with the decissions of the Commander in Chief. Raising awareness of troop support is about as needed as an amendement banning the burning of flags - not like there's a rampage of flag burning and troop harrassing going on that no one is aware of.

Do you support the war? Or are you dreaming of having better luck in 3 years?

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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952

Posted: 08/27/05 - 18:12 Post subject:

Kbarr wrote:

Soriak wrote:

Supporting or opposing the war in Iraq is a matter of opinion and except for election years, no one cares about what you (or I) think. Bush is in charge, he calls the shots. Better luck in 3 years.

But whoever cheers at the death of US Soldiers (Ie being "against" the troops) and/or that of civillians (of any country) is a sorry-ass excuse for a human being.

That being said, "support our troops" stickers/buttons/condoms truly are moronic. It goes without saying that you don't wish harm to anyone risking their lives for their country - even if you don't agree with the decissions of the Commander in Chief. Raising awareness of troop support is about as needed as an amendement banning the burning of flags - not like there's a rampage of flag burning and troop harrassing going on that no one is aware of.

Do you support the war? Or are you dreaming of having better luck in 3 years?

I support the war, because I believe it'll have a good effect long-term. I think the months leading up to it could have been handled differently - more sensible. The US had an unprecedented amount of support after 9/11 that went on even during the invasion of Afghanistan. After that the "for us or against us" approach was a mistake in my opinion. Still, what is done is done - no point in making up "what if" scenarios.

Other than that I wish the next President would be a little more concerned about the budget deficit. It's bad and it's not getting better - short or long term. Right now it seems to me the people in charge put their heads into the sand and expect the economy to recover on its own, or with the help of tax breaks. We can see how well this is working so far. And peacekeeping in Iraq isn't going to get any cheaper.

I have more issues with economic questions, but as far as I know, Bush is actually on my side there. Making it easier for illegal immigrants to become legal citizens and removing the cap on H1-B visas. Right now, many (probably most - I don't have a statistic on it though) people coming to the country work low wage jobs. The kind of people you'd want to come to the US - skilled, bright and willing/able to pay taxes - are being refused because of some arbitrary cap, forcing them to work for the competition in other countries.

This is definatly the time for less protectionism and more free trade - perfect job for a Republican. Now if they could only support stem cell research (and I mean really get behind it) and make "civil unions" federal law (seperate state and church - split the legal rights/duties from the religious bond of marriage) I'd start sending in some cheques. I guess you can't have it all tho. Wink

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Booker
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2562
Location: Corvallis, Oregon

Posted: 08/27/05 - 18:18 Post subject:

soriak for prez

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Desaitar
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 2641
Location: whore island

Posted: 08/27/05 - 18:32 Post subject:

supporting the troops means you are behind the troops and what they are doing. if you are against the war you dont support the troops, sorry. kinda sad for those soldiers dying out there for you.

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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952

Posted: 08/27/05 - 19:00 Post subject:

Desaitar wrote:

supporting the troops means you are behind the troops and what they are doing.

if you are against the war you dont support the troops, sorry. kinda sad for those soldiers dying out there for you.

You're making the mistake of looking at the person and the office as the same entity.

What if your best friend goes to a war you don't agree with - does he stop being your best friend, just because he's in the military? If he follows (legal) orders, do you blame him for his actions?

Every decent person supports the troops in that they wish for them to come home safely. But despite the vocal opinion of many war supporters, it is not patriotic to blindly support the decission of the government. Patriotic means being interested in what is best for the country - or rather what YOU believe to be best.

If you think the war is good, then it's patriotic to support it. If you think it's bad, it's patriotic to oppose it. But what is not patriotic, is supporting it just because it's the popular opinion, or someone told you to. Nor is it patriotic to put a "I SUPPORT THE TROOPS" sticker on your car - that doesn't help anyone.

No matter one's view of the war, there's simple things that can be done to "support troops." I read an article on CNN (when many solders were reutnring from Afghanistan, I believe) where passengengers of a US domestic flight with first class tickets, offered to trade seats with soldiers returning home. That's more of an inconvenience than putting a sticker on your car, and it wont proof to strangers how "patriotic" you are - but it sure is a nice gesture for the soldiers who got some extra legroom.

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Domination
Can't Stop Posting

Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 565
Location: Atlanta, GA

Posted: 08/27/05 - 19:27 Post subject:

Soriak wrote:

Desaitar wrote:

supporting the troops means you are behind the troops and what they are doing.

if you are against the war you dont support the troops, sorry. kinda sad for those soldiers dying out there for you.

You're making the mistake of looking at the person and the office as the same entity.

What if your best friend goes to a war you don't agree with - does he stop being your best friend, just because he's in the military? If he follows (legal) orders, do you blame him for his actions?

Every decent person supports the troops in that they wish for them to come home safely. But despite the vocal opinion of many war supporters, it is not patriotic to blindly support the decission of the government. Patriotic means being interested in what is best for the country - or rather what YOU believe to be best.

If you think the war is good, then it's patriotic to support it. If you think it's bad, it's patriotic to oppose it. But what is not patriotic, is supporting it just because it's the popular opinion, or someone told you to. Nor is it patriotic to put a "I SUPPORT THE TROOPS" sticker on your car - that doesn't help anyone.

No matter one's view of the war, there's simple things that can be done to "support troops." I read an article on CNN (when many solders were reutnring from Afghanistan, I believe) where passengengers of a US domestic flight with first class tickets, offered to trade seats with soldiers returning home. That's more of an inconvenience than putting a sticker on your car, and it wont proof to strangers how "patriotic" you are - but it sure is a nice gesture for the soldiers who got some extra legroom.

I hope no one thinks the war is good, war is never good, war is hell, and war should be avoided at all costs. However, there are times when it is a necassary evil. This should be pretty much common sense.

Its not patriotic to ever support a blind decision, its idiotic. However, one key ingredient of being patriotic is supporting your country even when at times you don't feel its doing the best or smartest thing. Most people miss this point. Even when things aren't going good, you should support your country and its actions unless they are illegaly taken, now don't take this to the other extreme like most democrats do and say "so its either with us or against us", thats not even close to what i'm saying. I am simply saying that all americans should support our government and its actions, if you disagree with the actions of the government you should voice your opinion when it comes time to vote. However, in a time of war - I believe that the citizens of this country should be united as one and let our elected officials that we put into office do its job and support the democratic process and follow the rules of the democratic process.

Its also perfectly natural to be critical of the actions of our government, which alot of people are, including myself. However, taking this to the extreme is just as bad as the other extreme of blindly supporting our government - they are both detrimental if you really think about it. There will be a time when you will get to speak your mind and hold the elected leaders accountable for their decisions that you disagree with. George W. didn't take us to war by himself, it required senate support. There are enough democrats in the senate to block the action if they really felt that strongly against the war. Obviously they didn't, regardless of what any of them say - They had the chance to say No to any type of war, yet they did not. They gave the executive branch the clear authority to invade Iraq, that is the bottom line.

Do the anti-war people not see that their actions of protesting and taking the pull-out now strategy is actually adversely affecting our military personnel in Iraq? It is encouraging more bombings, it is encouraging more to turn to terroism to solve problems instead of democracy. I think this is why alot of people believe you can't support the troops but not support the war. They are intertwined and its sad to see that american soldiers are losing their lives at an increased rate because of this. Face it, we are there, whats done is done - the best thing to do is work from here and push for a legitimate and smart pull-out strategy that will benefit Americans and Iraqis alike. That to me is truly supporting our troops, even if you feel it was a huge mistake to invade, we did it, move on and work towards a positive future instead of crying about the past. There is a time to remember this, and it will be the next elections.

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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952

Posted: 08/27/05 - 20:29 Post subject:

Quote:

I hope no one thinks the war is good, war is never good, war is hell, and war should be avoided at all costs. However, there are times when it is a necassary evil. This should be pretty much common sense.

By "good" I meant in the best interest of the country in the current situation.

Quote:

However, one key ingredient of being patriotic is supporting your country even when at times you don't feel its doing the best or smartest thing.

I disagree here- In my opinion one has to be patriotic to his or her country - not the people in charge. The people in charge are not always loyal to the common interest of the people, but often repay favors to those special interest groups who helped them get elected.

While it may not be most patriotic to demonstrate during a war, the wars that are being fought now are not limited in time. The war on terror will be fought even 20 years from now, probably even a hundred years from now. Life has to go on.

Quote:

George W. didn't take us to war by himself, it required senate support.

Well, technically it didn't. Every violation of the no-fly zone could have been used as an "excuse" to invade. Considering that was almost a daily occurance, it wouldn't have been a problem - legally speaking. Of course a unanimous Senate resolution sends a much clearer message.

I don't think demonstrations are increasing the number of suicide bombers - on the contrary. It sends a clear message: In a democracy you can disagree without fear of retribution. Think your government is wrong? Go demonstrate, go vote - there's no need to blow yourself up to make a point.

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Booker
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2562
Location: Corvallis, Oregon

Posted: 08/27/05 - 21:07 Post subject:

Domination wrote:

George W. didn't take us to war by himself, it required senate support. There are enough democrats in the senate to block the action if they really felt that strongly against the war. Obviously they didn't, regardless of what any of them say - They had the chance to say No to any type of war, yet they did not. They gave the executive branch the clear authority to invade Iraq, that is the bottom line.

I think at the time with the CIA telling them that Saddam had WMDs they might have thought it was a good idea. I think you also have to admit that there was quite a bit of furor at the time, they may have felt powerless to do anything, so attacking a country that was already not in our "good books", toss in a few false pretenses to wet the appetites of the doubtful, and everyone was ready to go to war.

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Akronn
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8752

Posted: 08/28/05 - 00:02 Post subject:

The knuckleheads who claim there isn't a difference between supporting the war and supporting the troops have a very different view of our involvement in Bosnia, I'm sure.

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a question

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