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Andur Ravenblade
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1214
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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 Posted: 07/09/04 - 12:35 Post subject:
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pretty much just states what everyone (except blind right-wingers) already knew.
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Frehya
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2398
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 12:38 Post subject:
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sorry, but its just liberal lies until Faux News reports it.
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Andur Ravenblade
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1214
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 12:46 Post subject:
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hiiiii frehya
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 12:49 Post subject:
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Hindsight is great, huh?
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Frehya
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2398
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 12:50 Post subject:
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hiiiii toa...errrr froggie.
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 12:51 Post subject:
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Let's ride this!
Giddy up!
Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The key U.S. assertions leading to the 2003 invasion of Iraq -- that Saddam Hussein had chemical and biological weapons and was working to make nuclear weapons -- were wrong and based on false or overstated CIA analyses, a scathing Senate Intelligence Committee report asserted Friday.
Quote:
For example, speculation that the presence of one specialized truck could mean an effort to transfer chemical weapons was puffed up into a conclusion that Iraq was actively making chemical weapons, the report said.
Keep looking!
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Banzai
Guest
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Banzai
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Frehya
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2398
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 13:02 Post subject:
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Banz is having a cleansing of the soul day. 
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Andur Ravenblade
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1214
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 13:06 Post subject:
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I hope my thread produces worthwhile drama.
BTW I"M NOT A TOAD FREHYA I SAW THAT.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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sinrakin
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 7044
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 13:08 Post subject:
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I think we established yesterday that the good of the majority outweighs the good of the individual, or of the minority.
So apparently as long as the number of dead soldiers < number of Republicans, it's all good.
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 13:35 Post subject:
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Based on a recommendation by the president ignoring the UN's better judgment that Iraq harbored WoMD. The UN offered to verify this and Bush lead with cowboy bravado by saying “No, bring on the attacks!”.
My hate isn’t blind, it is very specific, you allegiance however seems to be clouding your judgment. You are really going to stand by a guy who would have considered putting your life on the line because he rather not wait for a peaceful resolution? Realizing even in hind site the reasons he would use to provoke said violence would not be credible?
Wow man. When dose your duty as a solder stops and your politics begin.
Also, Frax, you should know better than most here:
U.S. Constitution Article II, Section 2 provides that "The president shall be Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States." While it's clear that the Framers intended for Congress alone to declare war, presidents don't always check with Congress before acting. Bush had a hard on for Iraq long befor he lost the popular vote.
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Paco
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 12939
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 14:27 Post subject:
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| Banzai wrote: |
Based on a recommendation by the president ignoring the UN's better judgment that Iraq harbored WoMD. The UN offered to verify this and Bush lead with cowboy bravado by saying “No, bring on the attacks!”.
My hate isn’t blind, it is very specific, you allegiance however seems to be clouding your judgment. You are really going to stand by a guy who would have considered putting your life on the line because he rather not wait for a peaceful resolution? Realizing even in hind site the reasons he would use to provoke said violence would not be credible?
Wow man. When dose your duty as a solder stops and your politics begin.
Also, Frax, you should know better than most here:
U.S. Constitution Article II, Section 2 provides that "The president shall be Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States." While it's clear that the Framers intended for Congress alone to declare war, presidents don't always check with Congress before acting. Bush had a hard on for Iraq long befor he lost the popular vote. |
See Frax0r..not good enough for them. 
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 14:31 Post subject:
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I am probably far more objective about this situation than a lot of people.. I am not a blind GWB supporter, nor a card carrying republican (or democrat for that matter). I have a strong background in history and in military history, and I have a hobbyists interest in world affairs. When it comes down to the basics of this war this is what it was about in my mind:
1) Resolving the loose ends of Desert Storm (Something that should have been done in 1991, blame Bush Sr /Clinton for keeping this going this long ) The initial plans for this war were reportedly drawn up in 1995 at the request of Defense Secretary William Cohen.
2) Ending the upwards of $1.4 billlion a year of US tax money spent on maintaining Operation Northern Watch / Southern Watch with very little to show for the monies being spent. Once again this was still in place because of the failure of Desert Storm to remove Saddam, and due to some regret over the fuckups by the US Govt over not supporting the Shia rebellion in 1991 which had nearly succeeded, and would have without a doubt with US support. Shoulda, coulda, woulda...
3) Stabilization of the middle east. If you like the means to the end or not, a stable (if not democratic) Iraq directly in the middle of the Islamic world will make a huge difference in the middle east. Freeing 24,000,000 humans from underneath the Hussein regime was not a bad outcome either.
4) Securing oil reserves for the future. Yes oil was a factor.
5) I believe GWB honestly believed the intelligence data he received was accurate, and acted upon it. So did Rober E. Lee at Gettysburg. And Custer in 1876.
I can't state this enough: Wars are not fought for moral or idealogical reasons (despite what any politician in history has stated) they are fought for national interest.
Do I like that brave young Americans are dying in Iraq? No but then again I try to be objective about it: How many people die on US highways every year? 40,000+ ? How many people die in the US from smoking? AIDS? Murders? How many children are abused in this country? How many people die from drug overdoses? IMO people focus far too much on Iraq casualties as "un-necessary' but let all these other kinds of things slide by on a daily basis, when they have a much worse affect on our society. Two invasions of Iraq in 13 years and we have lost less than 1500 soldiers? We have gotten off light. Try Stalingrad type casualties of 5,000+ per day if you want to talk about serious military blunders.
Anyways the main point of my original post is: GWB is not wholly responsible for this mess, he bears the brunt of the monkey poo being flung because he is the sitting president, but many, many more people in our government made this war happen.. stretching all the way back to the 1980s.
Show me a peaceful resolution to any international conflict of this scale, please... This war was inevitable, due to the stubborness of both sides (the USA and Iraq).
Deep Thoughts by Frax Handy
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 14:43 Post subject:
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| Banzai wrote: |
Based on a recommendation by the president ignoring the UN's better judgment that Iraq harbored WoMD. The UN offered to verify this and Bush lead with cowboy bravado by saying “No, bring on the attacks!”.
My hate isn’t blind, it is very specific, you allegiance however seems to be clouding your judgment. You are really going to stand by a guy who would have considered putting your life on the line because he rather not wait for a peaceful resolution? Realizing even in hind site the reasons he would use to provoke said violence would not be credible?
Wow man. When dose your duty as a solder stops and your politics begin.
Also, Frax, you should know better than most here:
U.S. Constitution Article II, Section 2 provides that "The president shall be Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States." While it's clear that the Framers intended for Congress alone to declare war, presidents don't always check with Congress before acting. Bush had a hard on for Iraq long befor he lost the popular vote. |
1. Congress had the same intelligence as Bush and they made their decision based on it.
2. Every president goes to congress to fight a war because they need the funding. Declaring war nowadays just isn't chic.
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 14:55 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: | I am probably far more objective about this situation than a lot of people.. I am not a blind GWB supporter, nor a card carrying republican (or democrat for that matter). I have a strong background in history and in military history, and I have a hobbyists interest in world affairs. When it comes down to the basics of this war this is what it was about in my mind:
1) Resolving the loose ends of Desert Storm (Something that should have been done in 1991, blame Bush Sr /Clinton for keeping this going this long ) The initial plans for this war were reportedly drawn up in 1995 at the request of Defense Secretary William Cohen.
2) Ending the upwards of $1.4 billlion a year of US tax money spent on maintaining Operation Northern Watch / Southern Watch with very little to show for the monies being spent. Once again this was still in place because of the failure of Desert Storm to remove Saddam, and due to some regret over the fuckups by the US Govt over not supporting the Shia rebellion in 1991 which had nearly succeeded, and would have without a doubt with US support. Shoulda, coulda, woulda...
3) Stabilization of the middle east. If you like the means to the end or not, a stable (if not democratic) Iraq directly in the middle of the Islamic world will make a huge difference in the middle east. Freeing 24,000,000 humans from underneath the Hussein regime was not a bad outcome either.
4) Securing oil reserves for the future. Yes oil was a factor.
5) I believe GWB honestly believed the intelligence data he received was accurate, and acted upon it. So did Rober E. Lee at Gettysburg. And Custer in 1876.
I can't state this enough: Wars are not fought for moral or idealogical reasons (despite what any politician in history has stated) they are fought for national interest.
Do I like that brave young Americans are dying in Iraq? No but then again I try to be objective about it: How many people die on US highways every year? 40,000+ ? How many people die in the US from smoking? AIDS? Murders? How many children are abused in this country? How many people die from drug overdoses? IMO people focus far too much on Iraq casualties as "un-necessary' but let all these other kinds of things slide by on a daily basis, when they have a much worse affect on our society. Two invasions of Iraq in 13 years and we have lost less than 1500 soldiers? We have gotten off light. Try Stalingrad type casualties of 5,000+ per day if you want to talk about serious military blunders.
Anyways the main point of my original post is: GWB is not wholly responsible for this mess, he bears the brunt of the monkey poo being flung because he is the sitting president, but many, many more people in our government made this war happen.. stretching all the way back to the 1980s.
Show me a peaceful resolution to any international conflict of this scale, please... This war was inevitable, due to the stubborness of both sides (the USA and Iraq).
Deep Thoughts by Frax Handy |
Well said.
At the end of the day my distain for Bush comes from the fact that the UN wasn't given a chance to resolve the issue that caused violence.
Saddam would have f****d up somehow and the region, I believe would have destabilized on it's own without Americans dieing. That is at the heart of why I don't like the guy. He may have honestly believed in the information he was given but I highly doubt he was in any way objective. He WANTED desperately to believe it.
What's past is past and what we used to occupy the area to rebuild it with a better foundation was shady and as a member of the planet I don't feel too good about that. I agree with you if we finished the job in the Bush Sr. / Clinton years we would have been better off. Iraq was the aggressor then and we would have been well justified.
Is it for the best in the long run? Time will tell but when you build on a shaky foundation there will always be callbacks to this time and resentment. Look at the Native Americans. We are still dealing with that shit even to this day.
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Abi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 1747
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 15:01 Post subject:
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| Quote: | | At the end of the day my distain for Bush comes from the fact that the UN wasn't given a chance to resolve the issue that caused violence |
You're right they were given 14 chances and failed...
oh and SPELLING POLICE it's "DISDAIN"
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 15:03 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: |
Show me a peaceful resolution to any international conflict of this scale, please... |
The cold war
/salute Ron
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Abi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 1747
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 15:04 Post subject:
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Frax .. EXCELLENT post .. too bad you wasted your time ... the Liberals here are worse than me and Confused in their zeal.
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Nahualli
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8461
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 15:06 Post subject:
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| Banzai wrote: | | Saddam would have f****d up somehow and the region, I believe would have destabilized on it's own without Americans dieing. |
Granted the threat level isn't nearly the same, but this is what people said about Fidel Castro and that crazy m**********r's still in power.
-Nah-
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Banzai
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 15:08 Post subject:
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| Abi wrote: | | Quote: | | At the end of the day my distain for Bush comes from the fact that the UN wasn't given a chance to resolve the issue that caused violence |
You're right they were given 14 chances and failed...
oh and SPELLING POLICE it's "DISDAIN" |
http://www.dontcare.com/
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 15:09 Post subject:
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| Nahualli wrote: | | Banzai wrote: | | Saddam would have f****d up somehow and the region, I believe would have destabilized on it's own without Americans dieing. |
Granted the threat level isn't nearly the same, but this is what people said about Fidel Castro and that crazy m**********r's still in power.
-Jesus!- |
And is a threat to our citizens and solders how?
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Nahualli
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8461
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 15:10 Post subject:
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| Abi wrote: | | Frax .. EXCELLENT post .. too bad you wasted your time ... the Liberals here are worse than me and Confused in their zeal. |
umm... Abi I don't even know how you would dare put yourself in any way on the level of Confused. There's no one here that is as bad. Not even Kbarr comes close.
-Nah-
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Nahualli
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8461
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 15:11 Post subject:
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| Banzai wrote: | | Nahualli wrote: | | Banzai wrote: | | Saddam would have f****d up somehow and the region, I believe would have destabilized on it's own without Americans dieing. |
Granted the threat level isn't nearly the same, but this is what people said about Fidel Castro and that crazy m**********r's still in power.
-Jesus!- |
And is a threat to our citizens and solders how? |
Well... I did point out the threat level wasn't nearly the same. If you want to get technical, however, Saddam gassing Kurds is no threat to our troops and our citizens, either. Yeah it's bad.. but it's not a threat to us.
-Nah-
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Banzai
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 15:12 Post subject:
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| Abi wrote: | | Frax .. EXCELLENT post .. too bad you wasted your time ... the Liberals here are worse than me and Confused in their zeal. |
Too late Abi, I already gave him props for a good post.
Good try at broad generalizations 101 ditto head, try reading next time 
Reading is fundamental!
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Abi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 1747
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 15:22 Post subject:
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Talk about generalizations.. I don't even like Rush nor do I listen to him so I'm FAR from a Dittohead... and no it's not too late cause even though you agreed it was a good post you STILL don't get it...
Nah.. I don't put myself even CLOSE to Confused level, but Banz and other board liberals seem to always group us together. Thank you for pointing this out though. I do appreciate that 
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 15:25 Post subject:
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| Abi wrote: | | I don't put myself even CLOSE to Confused level. |
Few are man enough to admit this.
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Krumble
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 771
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Posted: 07/09/04 - 16:21 Post subject:
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| Abi wrote: | | Frax .. EXCELLENT post .. too bad you wasted your time ... the Liberals here are worse than me and Confused in their zeal. |
I'm curious, where do you get off spewing this shit?
There is a total of maybe 4 people that subscribe to the title of "liberal" here (banzeye, syke, frehya, jack crow, and maybe a few others). I don't think I've ever seen Al Franken or Hillary Clinton material copied and pasted on this forum, yet everyone has to endure the weekly Ann Coulter column that you and Confused feel the need to share with us. I don't think any of the 4 are particularly pleased with either Kerry or Edwards, and they don't seem to get their panties in a wad when you all harp on the pasts and weaknesses of their candidates. And only Jack Crow rattles off as much party rhetoric as a few of the conservative posters here.
I guess I'm just not seeing the "zeal." Additionally, I don't understand exactly why you so strongly endorse the Republican party. I mean, you comprehend the fact that most far right wingers view your lifestyle choice as a mental illness, at best, right? At worst, they view you as some hedonistic, hell-bound degenerate. I'm not passing any judgement on you (or them), but the Republican party isn't known for getting a majority of the gay vote.
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