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Tolanin
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3551
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 Posted: 03/20/04 - 20:41 Post subject:
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| Phoenix wrote: | | Xarpolis wrote: | | Equality, remember? |
Only socialists strive for equality. |
No, only socialists strive for equality that is total and all the time, a good person strives for the equality of chance, to give each person equal footing at the start and let them go and those who are strong and good will turn out on top, those who are lazy turn out on the bottom. And the masses in the middle will be better for it all. Thats not socialism the way it is used, it is partially socialist yes because an effort must be made to put everyone equal at the start. But it does not need to be economically equal or even totally equal because that is impossible. It must be moving towards socially equal. What does economics do for you? it gives you a big house, a nice car at 16 and your gameboy to play with. It does not produce strong people inherintly. A poor person must be provided with food and shelter and encouraged or even forced to work for it. When that is done you must try to make sure the families values are strong, which is the key point. And the last part is schools should be equal, though even that is not needed because you can learn from an old book as well as from a new one nearly and you can write as well on recycled paper as on normal paper. Thats the equality that is needed and nothing more. Anything more is even detrimental.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 20:43 Post subject:
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equality of opportunity. There should be no affirmative action because being black/asian/hispanic/insert random race *is not a disability*. To encourage one group above another is to encourage divisionism and we need some f*****g unity. These tards took the wrong approach, I wouldn't shut down the scholarship, but if their only interest was to bring rational discussion to affirmative action they would have forced the dicussion. Instead they endorsed affirmative action by making their own version of it which further cauterized division. The token 'us vs. them' concept is a pain in the ass and it's no surprise the republican party reacted the way they did. And on another note, if these idiots are hating on gays then I see no reason why they aren't hating on minorities. A bigot is a bigot- there is no inbetween nor double talk when it comes down to it.
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Guest
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 20:45 Post subject:
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| lauren000 wrote: | | equality of opportunity. There should be no affirmative action because being black/asian/hispanic/insert random race *is not a disability*. To encourage one group above another is to encourage divisionism and we need some f*****g unity. These tards took the wrong approach, I wouldn't shut down the scholarship, but if their only interest was to bring rational discussion to affirmative action they would have forced the dicussion. Instead they endorsed affirmative action by making their own version of it which further cauterized division. The token 'us vs. them' concept is a pain in the ass and it's no surprise the republican party reacted the way they did. And on another note, if these idiots are hating on gays then I see no reason why they aren't hating on minorities. A bigot is a bigot- there is no inbetween nor double talk when it comes down to it. |
Freak.
Eunuch.
Idiot.
Last edited by Guest on 03/20/04 - 20:46; edited 1 time in total
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 20:46 Post subject:
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| Tolanin wrote: | | Phoenix wrote: | | Xarpolis wrote: | | Equality, remember? |
Only socialists strive for equality. |
No, only socialists strive for equality that is total and all the time, a good person strives for the equality of chance, to give each person equal footing at the start and let them go and those who are strong and good will turn out on top, those who are lazy turn out on the bottom. And the masses in the middle will be better for it all. Thats not socialism the way it is used, it is partially socialist yes because an effort must be made to put everyone equal at the start. But it does not need to be economically equal or even totally equal because that is impossible. It must be moving towards socially equal. What does economics do for you? it gives you a big house, a nice car at 16 and your gameboy to play with. It does not produce strong people inherintly. A poor person must be provided with food and shelter and encouraged or even forced to work for it. When that is done you must try to make sure the families values are strong, which is the key point. And the last part is schools should be equal, though even that is not needed because you can learn from an old book as well as from a new one nearly and you can write as well on recycled paper as on normal paper. Thats the equality that is needed and nothing more. Anything more is even detrimental. |
Equality and equal justice under law are two completely different things. Liberals want equality. Conservatives want equal justice under law.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 20:46 Post subject:
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| Megalo wrote: | ok ok ok ....i gotta say one thing now damn you...heh
Where do most white folks live? Suburbia and rural America.
Where do most black folks live? Inner City, specifically slums/projects/etc.
Why are they there? Because they like it?
Or because we put them there some years ago? Or how about because we've made every attempt possible to keep African American's down *JUST OFFICIALLY* up until the 1960's? (when you know goddamned well it still isn't equal today) |
I'm gender queer and I am still systematically put down. So is anyone who has a disability especially mental illness. Everyone thinks being black is so hard lol? Try being a schizophrenic that has been in and out of state hospital and gets less money than some baby-factory-b***h on a wellfare check.
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Megalo
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 682
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 20:49 Post subject:
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Not saying your cause is any more or less just.
Personally, I'd rather we quit taking care of the rest of the world and take care of our own people. We wouldn't need to be having discussions like this.
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Tolanin
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3551
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 20:51 Post subject:
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| lauren000 wrote: | | equality of opportunity. There should be no affirmative action because being black/asian/hispanic/insert random race *is not a disability*. To encourage one group above another is to encourage divisionism and we need some f*****g unity. These tards took the wrong approach, I wouldn't shut down the scholarship, but if their only interest was to bring rational discussion to affirmative action they would have forced the dicussion. Instead they endorsed affirmative action by making their own version of it which further cauterized division. The token 'us vs. them' concept is a pain in the ass and it's no surprise the republican party reacted the way they did. And on another note, if these idiots are hating on gays then I see no reason why they aren't hating on minorities. A bigot is a bigot- there is no inbetween nor double talk when it comes down to it. |
ya they did it wrong but the republican party has other problems that it needs to confront on affirmative action, they are way to silent on the issue. I agree with everything except for the analogy on the gay issue, gays are in direct conflict with the bible while minorities are not, I dont know their motives but I dont think that just because you think one thing is immoral means you hate everything that is not you. Saying a person being a bigot about one thing makes them a bigot about everything is wrong, we are all bigots about something, but none of us are bigots about everything. And if we wait for the perfect person to come and throw the first stone, nothing will ever be accomplished.
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Docter
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 20:53 Post subject:
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| Megalo wrote: | Not saying your cause is any more or less just.
Personally, I'd rather we quit taking care of the rest of the world and take care of our own people. We wouldn't need to be having discussions like this. |
But everytime we shy away from the rest of the world, we are critized for being uncaring about the starving masses around the world. We get accused of being decadent and of being the great Satan. Am I the only one to understand that we aren't just fighting for ourselves, that we are trying to make the world a better place? When there is a MAJOR natural or man-made catastrophy around the world, who's the first nation that gets called upon for assistance? It's fine for people to want our support and money...but s***w us for living in a free country? Well f**k you! It's time we ONLY helped those that HELP THEMSELVES!!!
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Tolanin
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3551
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 21:03 Post subject:
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Kbarr: Lauren is right on that point about making the division worse.
Pheonix: yes and its not surprising the real solution is somewhere in the middle and both are affraid to touch it.
Magelo: withdrawing from the rest of the world would come back to bit us in the ass, keeping the world stable and helping where we can is a good tactic even if it takes some hardship at home. Life was good for the romans who had barbarians on their borders but did nothing for them, only stayed and were a far off symbol of wealth and that life was good until rome was sacked, neh? But the point is, if you live in your shell but are content and well off but do not bother anyone else an animal will always come along that thinks of the sweet meat inside and kills you, whether or not you did anything to provoke it. Rome will always be sacked with that strategy. But if we stay out and keep the number of people who see us as a sweet meat to be eatten at liesure low then we are better off. And we help some people too.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 21:07 Post subject:
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tolanin: you win
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 21:14 Post subject:
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| Tolanin wrote: | | Pheonix: yes and its not surprising the real solution is somewhere in the middle and both are affraid to touch it. |
The "solution" is not in the middle.Forced equality is an injustice because it eliminates freedom. Equality = enslavement.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 21:15 Post subject:
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| Phoenix wrote: | | Tolanin wrote: | | Pheonix: yes and its not surprising the real solution is somewhere in the middle and both are affraid to touch it. |
The "solution" is not in the middle.Forced equality is an injustice because it eliminates freedom. Equality = enslavement. |
expectations only set limitations.
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quotison
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 1594
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 21:20 Post subject:
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| Phoenix wrote: | | Xarpolis wrote: | | Equality, remember? |
Only socialists strive for equality. |
Uh huh.
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Tex
Luke Warm
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 256
Location: Austin
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 21:27 Post subject:
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| quotison wrote: | I became against affirmative action while applying to colleges.
I loved reading brochures from colleges. One of them listed some stats about their school and included this:
blah blah Women at our school: 25% (we'd like more!)
blah blah Minorties at our school: 23% (we'd like more!)
I didn't apply to that school, it didn't seem they wanted any more white males.
The Republican Club at my school had an Anti-Affirmative Action bakesale. They sold brownies, 50 cents for women and minorites, and 1.25 for white males  There was a picture in the newspaper about it, but no major controversy. Probably because they are not a bunch of hypocrites (to the best of my knowledge), unlike the president of this school's republican club, who criticizes scholarships based on race, yet willingly accepts one himself. |
Do you go to SMU?
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Tolanin
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3551
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 21:28 Post subject:
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| Phoenix wrote: | | Tolanin wrote: | | Pheonix: yes and its not surprising the real solution is somewhere in the middle and both are affraid to touch it. |
The "solution" is not in the middle.Forced equality is an injustice because it eliminates freedom. Equality = enslavement. |
but total freedom to do whatever you want is bad, partial 'enslavement' as you put it is needed in society. Total enslavement is also bad. Moving towards making people partially equal in a non-economic sense does not hurt you. It doesnt abridge your rights, or make you less of a free person. It would prolly require some of your money to make peoples lives better yes but in the long run it would prolly make taxes less because of less crime and such. Making a society where children arent punished so severely for the bad decisions of their parents is a bad idea to you? Its only true socialism if they are not punished for the bad decisions they themselves make.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 21:35 Post subject:
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if some struggling black man really has it so hard then why don't we make community college free everywhere and poor people can start at community college and make their way to a more prestigious school? It's simple, they don't want equality of opportunity they want something special, and that is wrong.
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Docter
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 22:05 Post subject:
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| lauren000 wrote: | | if some struggling black man really has it so hard then why don't we make community college free everywhere and poor people can start at community college and make their way to a more prestigious school? It's simple, they don't want equality of opportunity they want something special, and that is wrong. |
You willing to foot the bill for this? We don't need more social programs if people aren't willing to help themselves, but only looking for a free handout.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 22:07 Post subject:
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| Docter wrote: | | lauren000 wrote: | | if some struggling black man really has it so hard then why don't we make community college free everywhere and poor people can start at community college and make their way to a more prestigious school? It's simple, they don't want equality of opportunity they want something special, and that is wrong. |
You willing to foot the bill for this? We don't need more social programs if people aren't willing to help themselves, but only looking for a free handout. |
last I checked going to community college while working isn't a hand out. It's still a challenge and it improves the quality of the citizens in a community. And yeah I'd rather do something real than throw money at something worthless like wellfare. But hey I'm sure you need someone to wash your dishes right doc?
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Tolanin
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3551
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 22:07 Post subject:
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| lauren000 wrote: | | if some struggling black man really has it so hard then why don't we make community college free everywhere and poor people can start at community college and make their way to a more prestigious school? It's simple, they don't want equality of opportunity they want something special, and that is wrong. |
yes, but community college wouldnt help either, the problem starts at young age, by the time they are 18 they have given up on school. Its not about giving anyone what they want, its about doing what will work and the only thing that will work is to make it so family is strived for in poorer areas. Push strong family and then make the lower lvl education better even to the point of free preschool. Every other problem would iron itself out by college, you wouldnt NEED free college because the kids would be ready for it, or if they are not its their own fault now because despite reenforcement and help they geniunely wouldnt accept help. Its like offering a guy who has been smoking 70 years a resperator when what needed to be done was make sure he never started smoking at all.
Thing is the problem starts young and unless your really smart and really motivated its hard to solve ever. At 2 or 3 kids should be learning stuff but in poor areas they arent. They dont know anything at the start of school and their parents even when school starts dont make their kids learn, they dont enforce discipline and they dont enforce doing your homework. And we have cut the schools off from enforcing discipline.. So by the time the kid is what 8 or 9 he is so far behind its almost impossible to catch up... and thats now that they should be aware enough to make good decisions for themselves to a small extent, they can make themselves do their own work by that age if its been reinforced, but since it hasnt they dont know its important so they dont do it still, so it goes on for a few more years prolly til 14 or so when they realize it might be beneficial to learn some stuff in school because the reality of needing a job and money has set in, yet by now they are massively far behind and the problem is almost insurmountable. By then its kinda to late to do anything, you have kids angry at a world they think failed them, starting to commit crime and do detrimental things to themselves to escape... a few will try to escape by working extra hard, a very very few, those are some of the sucesses you see, the other sucesses are ones who either through sheer luck or being extremely smart at a young age realized that they liked learning early on and didnt fall so far behind. Thats your problem and its progression people. A patch fix at age 18 is way to f*****g late, and giving them money so they can be lazy on welfare isnt a good answer either.
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Tolanin
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3551
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 22:11 Post subject:
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| lauren000 wrote: | | Docter wrote: | | lauren000 wrote: | | if some struggling black man really has it so hard then why don't we make community college free everywhere and poor people can start at community college and make their way to a more prestigious school? It's simple, they don't want equality of opportunity they want something special, and that is wrong. |
You willing to foot the bill for this? We don't need more social programs if people aren't willing to help themselves, but only looking for a free handout. |
last I checked going to community college while working isn't a hand out. It's still a challenge and it improves the quality of the citizens in a community. And yeah I'd rather do something real than throw money at something worthless like wellfare. But hey I'm sure you need someone to wash your dishes right doc? |
while i dont think free cc is the answer I agree with you on the point of putting money towards solving problems instead of patch fixes to hide them. Fact: 1 inmate in jail costs about 33k per year to care for. Fact: Millions of minorities are in jail. Fact: thats a hell of alot of money. Fact: it would be cheaper to fix the problem and give them benefits when they are young to help them rather than wait so we can arrest them and pay for them. Fact: this turns out better for everyone because 1 person isnt in jail on a dead end street towards death and 1 person isnt paying so much in taxes.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 22:14 Post subject:
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We make it easy to be a leach. Why should you go out and get a job for the man when you can peddle drugs get high, sit around, and make twice as much cash tax free. There is so much room for advancement in this country if you want to, but most people just don't give a shit.
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Docter
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 22:15 Post subject:
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But once you start giving free handouts, all motivation in life is lost. Why should someone work hard when the government is willing to pay them???
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 22:21 Post subject:
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| Docter wrote: | | But once you start giving free handouts, all motivation in life is lost. Why should someone work hard when the government is willing to pay them??? |
even if college is free *most* people will still not go. Community college used to be totally free in arizona before the 80's if I remember correctly. All you had to pay for was your books, and then funding came up short so the first thing that got cut was higher education. I think it's a serious mistake to make higher learning any more intimidating than it is already. If I had to point to another problem in child rearing it would be the excessive emphasis on athleticism in highschool especially in low income neighborhoods. Talk about a waste, giving scholarships to athletes with no goals other than to throw a ball around for the rest of their days.
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Clevinger
Guest
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 22:43 Post subject:
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| Docter wrote: | | But once you start giving free handouts, all motivation in life is lost. Why should someone work hard when the government is willing to pay them??? |
this is the only reason anyone should need for a justification against government programs in general
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Megalo
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 682
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 22:54 Post subject:
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Btw, for you folks not in California...
Community College is $11/credit unit.
You did not read that wrong. For a boatload of classes (12-15hrs) and books, it might cost you $300 a semester.
And I love the program. I've actually taken computer classes there myself. Wonderful program...looks like the melting pot of people we were supposed to be.
Lots of minority folks take advantage of it. Primarily hispanics in this region, but again, I plaud them.
If every state worked like this, we'd be off to a good start.
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Megalo
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 682
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 22:59 Post subject:
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Man, also....that way of thinking you guys have about everyone sitting on their ass collecting Gubment help is propoganda.
I know none of you actually have seen minorities doing such things, as you're terminally white, but trust me....
That's only a small majority.
Kinda like how you f**k all your relatives. I know it's only a handful, but it spreads stereotypes.
Come to "tha city" or any metropolitan area and you'll see it's not about sitting at home collecting checks. More like HAVING A HOME. But what would you know about that?
Keep that anus flapping.
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Megalo
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 682
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 23:04 Post subject:
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Tell ya what...
Go down to some inner city shelter or something to that degree and help out for an afternoon.
Doc, you quit pounding twinkies for one f*****g day, and go out and get your hands dirty.
Lauren probably has agorophobia, so I doubt she's been out of the house much at all. Can't blame her for that.
You people don't know the first thing about this. Not one iota. You've been fed b******t, probably all your lives, by relatives and the media.
You uneducated b*****s talk about affirmative action taking away spots in college? That's a f*****g riot. Did you see Xarp's post? Not breaking 900 on your SAT might be the REAL problem, buddy.
You honestly talk about things you no nothing about. And for any of us who've managed to get off our FAT ASSES and help out, we can spot yas a mile away.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 23:05 Post subject:
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most of the people I know that are struggling economically aren't a racial minority. That is part of why it would make a lot more sense to help people get higher education regardless of race  .
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 23:09 Post subject:
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| Megalo wrote: |
Lauren probably has agorophobia, so I doubt she's been out of the house much at all. Can't blame her for that.
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I do volunteer work because it's damn near impossible to get a job without a skill set/tradeskill/higher education and with no past work experience. The bread winners in my area work at all the mcdonalds it's sad seriously.
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Megalo
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 682
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Posted: 03/20/04 - 23:09 Post subject:
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I have no pity for poor white trash. Plain and simple.
If you're white in this country, were born in this country, there is no reason on Earth you shouldn't be doing ok for yourself.
You are not subjugated on a daily basis like most minorities.
Being white, I know you find this hard to believe.
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