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Rothander
Luke Warm
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 312
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 Posted: 03/25/03 - 14:41 Post subject: Warriors, SKs, and Paladin.
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This brings up my biggest gripe with EQ lately, Rennol stated it.
SKs and Pallys can keep taunt better than a warrior these days.
WTF is up with that? Warriors are getting screwed in DPS, Abilities, and everythign else, The only advantages we have any more is our DEFENSIVE disc.
other than that wee are pretty damn useless. Since when is this Balance?
SOE saying that EB weapons are the answer. b******t eb weapons are still damn rare, and are out of the hands of most of the playerbase.
Sure the BoC is droppable but f**k, it sells for 350k.
Someone explain to me the balance in these? SKs and Pallys have the ability to Heal, Cast other beneficiary spells, and have better DPS than warriors, Hold taunt and Tank just as well as most warriors with the Exception of the Disc Defensive.
This is wrong, Warriors are there to tank and be able to HOLD aggro, wich rarely happns now other than in a Boss Mob encounter.
Warriors need an upgrade of some sort to keep them in line with the other classes. Im not saying nerf SKs and Pallys, I like them where they are, but give the Warriors a BONE DAMNIT!
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Vashers
Luke Warm
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 220
Location: A Cardboard Box
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 14:45 Post subject:
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don't forget rangers
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Akimatsu
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 874
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 14:48 Post subject:
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Warriors are fine as is... its all about other classes controlling their own agro. You can buy alot of decent warrior weapons now.
If warriors held agro any better then most things wouldnt even be a challenge, warriors are the best tanks, by far. Sure a paladin can take agro, but so can a wiz, necro, bard, shaman, monk, rogue and like 6 othe classes :p. Warriors are needed for the harder encounters, I dont really see warriors having to hard of a time unless they suck ass.
So in closing.... monks need an upgrade!
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Rothander
Luke Warm
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 312
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 14:48 Post subject:
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No Offence, but dont get me started, Rangers are so overpowered atm, its sickening, thousands of damage from outa range and not one worry of drawing aggro.
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Dyers
Sir Postalot
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 1269
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 14:50 Post subject:
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Relax Roth it will be alright 
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Goraz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3736
Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 15:22 Post subject:
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eq sucks you f*****g toolbox so why even bother bringing up a stupid f*****g topic like this
you f*****g moron
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Akimatsu
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 874
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 15:43 Post subject:
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You should have posted that anon or something Goraz 
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Akronn
Guest
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 15:47 Post subject: Re: Warriors, SKs, and Paladin.
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| Rothander wrote: | | SKs and Pallys can keep taunt better than a warrior these days. |
Hmm, wasn't aware there was a time when we couldn't. As a paladin (a gimpy one no less) I've always been able to get and keep aggro anytime and everytime I've wanted it.
I don't think that's such a big deal. Shouldn't we be the ones taking it for the team anyways?
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Maldek
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 2089
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 15:51 Post subject:
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Still have to respect the mad HPs.
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xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 16:00 Post subject:
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If you are a warrior and grouped with a paladin and want to be tanking, but aren't, chances are:
a) the paladin sucks, or...
b) you are fighting mobs that cast, or...
c) the paladin is f*****g with you for 3 years of keeping us down, or...
d) you suck, or...
e) You need to get AE Taunt & learn to use it effectively, or...
f) You need to upgrade weapons, or...
Seriously, lower tier PoP zones are like candy land for paladins. We've been a distant second place on tanking for a LONG time, so its very easy to get carried away and want to tank. I find myself doing it fairly often, plus its got elements lf the power trip to just be able to do it to the poor warrior. But, with that said, its not always a case of wanting agro, and I'm pretty good at getting rid of agro when I don't want it. Also, if the mob is a healer and/or gates, I'm prolly gonna have agro through most of the fight cause i'm gonna be tossing 2 really high agro stuns,a nd while if you time it right you can absolutely keep agro off me, most seem to have trouble paying this kind of detailed attention.
For paladins to get rid of agro, keep root handy. Often on pulls, I'll pop the mob with a serenity. Gives 10 sec for debuffs & warrior taunting. Or just root, same & if the tank stands closest then its theirs irregardless of my agro generation. Also, learn to turn off attack and back up for a bit.
Also, a big part of it is the skill of the warrior. I've seen warriors that no matter what I do, cannot hold agro off me. I've also seen warriors that were the shit and held agro off me with seeming ease. It really depends on the warrior and their degree of skill in the class.
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khalysta
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 641
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 16:01 Post subject:
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| Rothander wrote: | | No Offence, but dont get me started, Rangers are so overpowered atm, its sickening, thousands of damage from outa range and not one worry of drawing aggro. |
Thats actually getting fixed soon. Archery will have aggro just like wizards and other range atacks.
Like others said warriors are still the best at what they do and that is tank the big mobs. Pallys, sks and rangers might be able to tank as effectively in pov/bot and hold aggro better but none of them will stand for long when a mob hits for 3500. This needs a warrior with defensive and a few good back ups to boot but its just an example that warriors are really the defacto tank, it's just in xp groups where the hybrids come alive because they have range spells that grab aggro quickly and effectively.
A somewhat cost effective way to get close to EB like weapons is do the poi dragon which drops a taunting blow weapon. Its not a boc but its 13/19 and 75 hps and TB is 450 to hate which makes it a very cheap substitute since it only takes 1-2 groups to farm this to get warriors one. Bloodfrenzys and hategivers are pretty rare off cursed and xtc but those can be done with 30ish now so not hard for anyone to farm either.
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Harkov
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 229
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 16:42 Post subject:
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Ok since I can look at this from the SK perspective.. I agree something needs to change slightly. Like an AA skill that will make tuant double check itself or something. Cause I can't stand relying on weapons for aggro. It shouldn't be like that. It's honestly the only class in the game that has to have weapons based off a single proc to be effectively equal at holding aggro. It really irks me too that I'm basically forced to use 1handers because of the tuant. I guess that's why I stick with epic 2hander because outside of Rallos and whatever mob in Sol tower .. there aren't any tuant proccing 2handers.
On the other side, I love that SKs and Pallys can steal aggro from me. It's a life saver sometimes with multiple add pulls and also knowing that right now.. If they weren't there the chanter or shaman would be dead because I know I wont be able to tuant it effectively. It can take like 5 tuants sometimes to get it to switch to me, or hope my weapon procs. And it sucks too that that they can't wait to debuff.. because if the mob isn't instantly debuffed we will all die anyways to insane DPS.
I find myself being just dmg in exp groups lately because honestly in certian situations (and based on gear) hybrids tank better. I'm not ashamed of this, but I wouldn't mind to be able to add significant DPS. I will later, 100 AA from now.
Then, like xammah said.. Warriors have been god for such a long time. It's kinda funny not many people remember when hybrids owned us before as they do now (not to the same degree now though, still need us for ub3r mobs.. but back then there wasn't such a thing). It's a leapfrog cycle. I'm sure in a few months a whole new influx of warriors twinks will be happening again hehe 
I'm content for now letting them have an ego boost. It's been a long time comming hehe.
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Clevinger
Guest
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 16:47 Post subject:
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| Rothander wrote: | | No Offence, but dont get me started, Rangers are so overpowered atm, its sickening, thousands of damage from outa range and not one worry of drawing aggro. |
Rangers are supposed to be nerfed soon where they can pull aggro w/bow so this just made them alot shittier.
If you are crying about how warriors are as good as pallies and sk's in xp groups.... then you are right. Warriors are still good for groups and where they lack dps they more than make up for it with AC and HP's.
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Xenden
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 1532
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 16:57 Post subject:
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I am going to have to agree with Roth here
I currently use a shortblade of lightning (13/19 with a bunch of stats primary) and a tae ew dagger (14/24 plus stats, offhand) with 36 haste...
I sometimes have a hell of a time holding aggro and it p****s me off to no end.
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Ynih Yllems
Total Newbie
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 31
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 17:15 Post subject:
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| Quote: | 2hander because outside of Rallos and whatever mob in Sol tower .. there aren't any tuant proccing 2handers.
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Not that anyone wants to do it, but there is a 2hander with taunting blow that drops in the RoF from what I hear.
Like most have said, warriors do still have their places even in exp groups. All that's happened lately is they've made it so groups don't HAVE to have a warrior.
It's also like Xammer hinted at, it's not just the warrior's role to hold agro. It's the job of everyone in the group to make sure the tank has agro.
I do agree with ya Roth that it does get old to watch pally/sk only weapons drop one after another that are just sick in damage/delay vs. ones warrior's can use. However, the last time I had someone parse my damage in a group with an SK, my DPS was much higher than his. This isn't always the case. There are plenty of sk's and pallies that can out damage me, but there's plenty sk's and pally's that I outdamage.
The place I think warriors got screwed in PoP was in AA's...ours are just plain boring 
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Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 17:28 Post subject:
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Warriors are a must have for big dps raid mobs, unless you have the l33test of paladins/sks, I suppose.
They also get equipped before nearly any other class in guilds. How high do you think paladins and sks are on the loot priority list for guilds?
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Paden
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 9362
Location: North CAROLINA!
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 17:34 Post subject:
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When i played my warrior i did not go for Great DPS
i went for taunt
something with a slow or with a big DD and you can keep taunt well
Now i was a human warrior and i always held taunt ok.
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Luturb
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 4042
Location: Livermore, California
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 17:35 Post subject:
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The reason Paladins/SKs own warriors in exp groups is the total aggro control. From the point of view of the cleric, sure you might have to cast CH on the paladin 20% sooner than you would with an equivalent-gear warrior, but you only have to heal the paladin and nobody else. With a warrior on the other hand, you probably have to heal the puller, then the enchanter slows and the mob ping-pongs on him and you have to blow fast heals keeping him alive, then if you do too much, you pull aggro yourself and have to DA or heal yourself, then finally the warrior gets aggro. Yea he tanks great after he gets aggro, but if he has bad luck with taunt or procs, you can blow half your mana healing the rest of the group, where a Hybrid has aggro immediately and doesn't lose it.
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Clevinger
Guest
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 17:54 Post subject:
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| Xenden wrote: | I am going to have to agree with Roth here
I currently use a shortblade of lightning (13/19 with a bunch of stats primary) and a tae ew dagger (14/24 plus stats, offhand) with 36 haste...
I sometimes have a hell of a time holding aggro and it p****s me off to no end. |
No offense, but it is because your weapons suck and have no +aggro proc. Frostbringer would prolly own that off hand and only costs like a few hundred pp.
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xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 17:56 Post subject:
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| Ynih Yllems wrote: | | Quote: | 2hander because outside of Rallos and whatever mob in Sol tower .. there aren't any tuant proccing 2handers.
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It's also like Xammer hinted at, it's not just the warrior's role to hold agro. It's the job of everyone in the group to make sure the tank has agro.
I do agree with ya Roth that it does get old to watch pally/sk only weapons drop one after another that are just sick in damage/delay vs. ones warrior's can use. However, the last time I had someone parse my damage in a group with an SK, my DPS was much higher than his. This isn't always the case. There are plenty of sk's and pallies that can out damage me, but there's plenty sk's and pally's that I outdamage.
The place I think warriors got screwed in PoP was in AA's...ours are just plain boring |
1. Yeah, warrior AA is pretty boring and I do wish they'd spice it up considerably.
2. The warrior I group with most often is Ynih, and when I'm messin with him I can steal agro, but honestly he does a great job keepin agro off of me, and does it dual wielding.
3. Though I can steal agro from Ynih, I don't tank NEARLY as well as he does.
4. A paladin tanking is a paladin who is not healing, helping with CC, doing the most damage they can, etc... Its just a muchless efficient use of our abilities.
5. Even with one of the best paladin weapons in the game, Resplendent War Maul, warriors will still out damage me. They have a better damage table & innate skill. Though not as many warriors as when I was usin Primal only.
6. I think warriors could really benefit from some increase on taunt abilities, however that has some problems with it. One being it will make raids easier since you won't have to worry about your warrior lossing agro, so you can burn away. Another, one of your trades for effectively lower tauntinga bilities is you tank MUCH better. The big 'killer' on warriors atm seems to be enrage & riposte. Miss the enrage message and your warrior is just paste. =(
7. Also, if you wanna tank more effectively, get the best damn haste item you can. A lotta the warriors who have trouble taunting off paladins/sks are using stuff like CoF's, CoCW's, RBB's, etc... Get somethin better if ya can, it will help tremendously.
8. As far as the warrior's role in the group? A lotta shortsighted folks prolly think warriors are hozed. I personally disagree completely. As I said before. A paladin who is tanking is _REALLY_ limiting himself from the full use of his abilities. I'd MUCH rather have a warrior tanking for me than do it myself. Not cause I can't, but because it just works out so much better.
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xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 17:57 Post subject:
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| Xenden wrote: | I am going to have to agree with Roth here
I currently use a shortblade of lightning (13/19 with a bunch of stats primary) and a tae ew dagger (14/24 plus stats, offhand) with 36 haste...
I sometimes have a hell of a time holding aggro and it p****s me off to no end. |
Might consider getting a 2h weapon. I've heard lots of warriors say that they get better results with that. Though only get one with a better than 1/1 ratio.
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Agaroo
Luke Warm
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 132
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 18:19 Post subject: I've been going 2hand for a while now....
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I had a lot of the same frustrations when PoP first came out. I started using 2handers -- almost exclusively, but only in PoP zones at first.
I actually prefered my 2hand epic over most of the 1 hand combos I had available to me:
Jagged Blade of War
I started to mix in:
Ancient Prismatic Claymore - sometimes using it exclusively.
Now I'm using:
Norge'tal - which I've been more than happy with thus far.
If your 2hand choices are lacking -- grab a dex buff, and whip out the 2hand epic -- you might be pleasantly surprised.
( don't get me wrong, if a hybrid wants agro -- they can still get it, but life became much easier for me when I switched to 2hand in PoV, PoS, BoT, etc... )
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Omol
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 304
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 18:51 Post subject:
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| Quote: | most seem to have trouble paying this kind of detailed attention.
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you dont give your paying attention speach anymore Xammer?
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Pankrat
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 603
Location: Land of Paranoia
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 20:22 Post subject:
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Warriors have more hp, better class only armour and higher offensive skill caps than paladins. They also have /disc's worth a shit that allow them to add dps or tank incoming dps like no other class.
Higher skill caps means that the same weapon in the hands of warrior will do more damage than in the hands of a Knight - period.
It's not our fault if you choose to wield lesser damaging weapons.
And yes its already been stated - we could always out aggro a warrior - we just didn't always want to.
If paladins had a defensive type skill that allowed us to tank mega boss mobs then warriors would be obsolete.
If warriors could hold aggro like paladins/sk's then not only would Paly/SK be obsolete, but many uber fights would greatly trivialized.
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Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 20:42 Post subject:
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| khalysta wrote: | | Rothander wrote: | | No Offence, but dont get me started, Rangers are so overpowered atm, its sickening, thousands of damage from outa range and not one worry of drawing aggro. |
Thats actually getting fixed soon. Archery will have aggro just like wizards and other range atacks.
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In other words, rangers will now draw aggro from 1 arrow, because we know it's either end of the spectrum for EQ.
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Braid
Luke Warm
Joined: 01 Jan 2003
Posts: 447
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 21:22 Post subject:
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Maybe when a ranger shoots his bow it will activate his taunt key
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Ynih Yllems
Total Newbie
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 31
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 22:24 Post subject:
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| Quote: | 1. Yeah, warrior AA is pretty boring and I do wish they'd spice it up considerably.
2. The warrior I group with most often is Ynih, and when I'm messin with him I can steal agro, but honestly he does a great job keepin agro off of me, and does it dual wielding.
3. Though I can steal agro from Ynih, I don't tank NEARLY as well as he does.
4. A paladin tanking is a paladin who is not healing, helping with CC, doing the most damage they can, etc... Its just a muchless efficient use of our abilities.
5. Even with one of the best paladin weapons in the game, Resplendent War Maul, warriors will still out damage me. They have a better damage table & innate skill. Though not as many warriors as when I was usin Primal only.
6. I think warriors could really benefit from some increase on taunt abilities, however that has some problems with it. One being it will make raids easier since you won't have to worry about your warrior lossing agro, so you can burn away. Another, one of your trades for effectively lower tauntinga bilities is you tank MUCH better. The big 'killer' on warriors atm seems to be enrage & riposte. Miss the enrage message and your warrior is just paste. =(
7. Also, if you wanna tank more effectively, get the best damn haste item you can. A lotta the warriors who have trouble taunting off paladins/sks are using stuff like CoF's, CoCW's, RBB's, etc... Get somethin better if ya can, it will help tremendously.
8. As far as the warrior's role in the group? A lotta shortsighted folks prolly think warriors are hozed. I personally disagree completely. As I said before. A paladin who is tanking is _REALLY_ limiting himself from the full use of his abilities. I'd MUCH rather have a warrior tanking for me than do it myself. Not cause I can't, but because it just works out so much better. |
/points at his uber CoF hehe
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Goraz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3736
Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 22:27 Post subject:
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| Xenden wrote: | I am going to have to agree with Roth here
I currently use a shortblade of lightning (13/19 with a bunch of stats primary) and a tae ew dagger (14/24 plus stats, offhand) with 36 haste...
I sometimes have a hell of a time holding aggro and it p****s me off to no end. |
no one cares.
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Minion
Guest
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 22:29 Post subject:
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Is every single EQ player totally oblivious to the fact that the game will never function adequately? Ever?
It's impossible.
Don't cry for balance because it isn't f*****g coming.
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Paden
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 9362
Location: North CAROLINA!
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Posted: 03/25/03 - 22:32 Post subject:
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Warriors got a punch in the face the day that they started letting other class's getting crits!
Criticle and crippling hits were a warrior trade mark!
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