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EEndi
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 04 Mar 2003
Posts: 515
Location: Where ever I go, there I am...
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Okami
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2242
Location: The new board
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 Posted: 11/08/03 - 14:03 Post subject:
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Yay
I'll think I'll take the day off work and play.
Will be nice to turn on lfg and instantly get a tell.
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Malodious
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 991
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Posted: 11/08/03 - 14:52 Post subject:
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Nifty, I can sit in the middle of a bunch of warriors and play an AE DoT, go go red spam! /nod
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Wootuz
Total Newbie
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 27
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Posted: 11/08/03 - 15:13 Post subject:
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Thanks for posting this here Eendi. I was thinking about it...but figured it wouldn't get any real answers or responses so I didn't waste my time. Spam away!! Just looks like your supporting the cause!
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Brael
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2122
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Posted: 11/08/03 - 17:32 Post subject:
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What cause? That your class is losing its edge and having to share stuff just like every other class in EQ has to? That your class needs nerfed (or knights need upped) so Warriors arent 100% required for any raid in EQ from Kunark-Pre timefarm? Strangely enough the point where Warriors lose their required for raid flag they get desireable for groups. Funny how that works isn't it?
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Tamrissa
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 29 Nov 2002
Posts: 7100
Location: at my computer
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Posted: 11/08/03 - 18:07 Post subject:
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okami you can tank for me any time 
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Luturb
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 4042
Location: Livermore, California
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Posted: 11/08/03 - 19:36 Post subject:
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| Brael wrote: | | Strangely enough the point where Warriors lose their required for raid flag they get desireable for groups. Funny how that works isn't it? |
I'm not really into the "stand down". But what in the hell are you talking about?
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Minion
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Posts: 3474
Location: The Ghetto
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Posted: 11/08/03 - 23:14 Post subject:
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| Luturb wrote: | | Brael wrote: | | Strangely enough the point where Warriors lose their required for raid flag they get desireable for groups. Funny how that works isn't it? |
I'm not really into the "stand down". But what in the hell are you talking about? |
Brael is mystical like that.
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Kantiz
Sir Postalot
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 1267
Location: Harrisburg, PA
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 00:12 Post subject:
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God, people are so pathedic.
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Akronn
Guest
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 00:13 Post subject:
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This is sad.
I mean... how dare the designers not make warriors the preferred tank in absolutely every situation. 
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Yanbik
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 1575
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 00:29 Post subject:
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whiney ass warriors
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Paden
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 9362
Location: North CAROLINA!
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 00:42 Post subject:
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| Akronn wrote: | This is sad.
I mean... how dare the designers not make warriors the preferred tank in absolutely every situation. |
But the warriors of todays EQ do need some help.
Tanking was the only thing going for them. Now that any old SK or Pal can can do the job and Deal out some good DMG that makes the warriors useless. But to most raids.
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Carnican
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 719
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 00:47 Post subject:
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Why "STAND" down?
/SIT down generates a ton on aggro. Warrior issue fixed. I win! Ask any caster.
Seriously, I'd have an opinoin and a stance if I was any other class but the ones that the warriors are constatly b******g about.
To the whiners, "F-em. It'll be nice to take your place that day"
To the rest that can, and know how to manage aggro, "/LFG on. "
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Meeatsu
Sir Postalot
Joined: 10 Nov 2002
Posts: 1083
Location: St. Louis, Mo
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 01:09 Post subject:
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/sit will also kill your tank =P
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Carnican
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 719
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 01:43 Post subject:
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Well, understood, Meets. Ask Ciane about four-corners. I got the tounge-lashing about mitigation during /sit.
Warriors have an issue (the taunt engine) that needs to be adressed.
BUT, TheSteelWarrior.com is the problem.
What just happened over there is the common shared braincell of that board community caught wind of a guild that has Quarm down to "better-than-farm" status. AO has Quarm to an "art" status. So, that just allows every level 56 warrior that posts there the undying right to cry foul... That's pure bullsh*t.
Any Time-enabled guild got where they are by knowing aggro managment, class skills, proper class population, appropriate AA's, self taught strats, guild player-base dedication, and the proper use of thier warriors, knights, casters, and priests. Nothing more.
When AO puts a Chanter or Wizzy up as main tank (just to prove that any figure-holder can be the MA) the tide of b******g will change. It will be the tone of, AO is so powerful they can laugh in the face of SOE.
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Torval
Luke Warm
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 138
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 04:12 Post subject: re
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whine whine whine.
warriors actually do tank a good deal better than knights even in non defensive, and do better damage besides. they taunt well enough as it is.
foh boards seem down atm, or i would link the threads with the pertinent information.
as an aside, i'm not against warriors getting improvements, but what kind of improvements? i see no really good improvements/ solutions mentioned by anyone. no your class is not obsolete because a knight tanked quarm or rz. i guarantee they did not start out using knights to do so. i also guarantee they could and eventually will do it with a monk. nerf monk tanking! if you nerf knight aggro into the dirt people will use rangers to tank because of their aggro. people are lazy.
and yes , brael is wierder than a 3 dollar bill.
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Glanoric
Fresh Meat
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 7
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 05:51 Post subject:
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So warriors will protest their inability to get groups by... not looking for groups. Great job warriors, I'm sure people will care.
Shoulda called this thread, "Warriors make complete asses out of themselves" thread. Or maybe, "Druids dethroned! There is a new king of bitchery!"
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 08:27 Post subject:
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You people b******g about this don't understand the reason:
1) SOE has been promising for 4 months to look at and fix PURE MELEE (Warrior/Rogue/Monk) problems and has yet to deliever anything.
2) In that same time frame they have fixed about 100 ridiculous newb things like 200 sense heading, all kinds of 'help' functions for new people, added complete new LDoN zones on top of the LDoN expansion for raid whiners, and any number of other things that weren't even announced when the melee changes were announced.
3) Monks did this a long, long time ago and it got Verants attention.
4) Knights were never meant to have more usabilty than pure melee, both SK and Paladin are a hybrid class of Warrior + another (Necro / Cleric) and both have way more than a 50/50 split of those abilities, closer to a 75/75 split, which makes them 150% effective instead of 100% effective. Take a look at high end SK/Pal magelos compared to high end warriors. They have basically the same HP and 50% more utility via spells/abilities. That is the problem.
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Dyers
Sir Postalot
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 1269
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 10:45 Post subject:
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So my weapon skills cap the same as a warriors, Frax?
Hell, you might as well show us a comparative with the SK/Pal to War skills.
Magelos showing Hybrids with "basically the same HP" happen to have damn good gear to make it so. (besides the fact that basically leaves it pretty vague).
I still don't see any proof that a Warrior/Monk/Rogue needs any help at all except a War needing a little better taunt. That's it though.
Rest is just pointing fingers at the Hybrids who have gone through a hell of a lot more crap than the Wars ever have in the field of teh suk and where are the groups who love me. waaaaaa
Want to be king of the hill? Show your leaders more suction and get better gear as your leader just happens to be a Paladin...Otherwise, stop yer whining...my god man...
Its not about the individual when you are raiding it is about the whole, and it is obvious that some Wars have a couple big gaping holes as a problem, perhaps not grabbing their ankles and crying like a b***h would help that and shutting their trap as well?
You are at damn near the end game and going to Elementals yet still can whine about what? Nothing that I can see.
You either suck in a group or for some reason you can't handle the mob smacking the slower a couple times before your taunt gets attention again? Ohh please...
Whose hat did you pull this info from? "Knights were never meant to have more usabilty than pure melee" You work at Sony and know this for a fact?
Thanks for the laugh. 
Rest of you Wars I group/raid with, kudos. I think you all rock. Seems some just want it all and will cry if they don't get it.
Last edited by Dyers on 11/14/03 - 02:40; edited 1 time in total
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 11:04 Post subject:
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You don't even understand the problem. I *personally* don't have a problem finding a group, I rarely if ever XP any more.. but warriors who are using weapons from Droga and armor from velious (or worse) still do, mainly because of SK/Paladins in equivilant type gear are superior XP group tanks. There is no path for them to upgrade to compensate for tools that hybrids can buy in the bazaar for a few hundred plat, or even worse off a spell vendor for 20pp.
Thanks for the 'paladins of norrath' attitude tho, shows the ignorance of the problem =)
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Dyers
Sir Postalot
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 1269
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 11:19 Post subject:
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It is the age of the Paladin bro. hahaha
I am all for Wars getting a better taunt. I just don't care for the pointing fingers at other classes as that is just wrong.
Wars with Droga and Vel gear need to get on the ball and the Cease spell is probably what you are talking about. "off a spell vendor for 20pp" holds agro forever. It rocks and hell..I am not saying anymore...Sony may be watching for all I know. 
You need a better taunt. That I will agree on. The rest about HP and AC...Wars need to get on the ball and get better gear and stop thinking like Abi and going hey, where's my HP??
As for the PoN statment. I stay clear of those comparison posts, they just p**s me off and I don't care to be in a bad mood. Want instant agro, go for it. GL and all that. Hope what you are after doesn't nerf the crap out of other classes.
Tell you what. Explain to me what Wars are asking for. More HP? Better Taunt? Instant CC?
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Fedmahn
Total Newbie
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 26
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 11:28 Post subject:
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It seems nothing has changed.
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Dyers
Sir Postalot
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 1269
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 11:29 Post subject:
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hahaha
Hey Fed.
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Andur Ravenblade
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1214
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 11:32 Post subject:
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| Quote: | You don't even understand the problem. I *personally* don't have a problem finding a group, I rarely if ever XP any more.. but warriors who are using weapons from Droga and armor from velious (or worse) still do, mainly because of SK/Paladins in equivilant type gear are superior XP group tanks. There is no path for them to upgrade to compensate for tools that hybrids can buy in the bazaar for a few hundred plat, or even worse off a spell vendor for 20pp.
Thanks for the 'paladins of norrath' attitude tho, shows the ignorance of the problem =) |
Isn't that more of an itemization problem though? My personal view is, unless you remove defensive you can't begin to touch warriors in the way they need to be upgraded. Also the magelos that you see don't normally account for other stats for knights (FT/Focus/etc.), so it's not normally a good comparison to go by.
As for the tanking in time, i think SoE has established that they do not want one class to fill a role (IE Clerics CH rotation (which still needs fixing the druid CH was a start), Monks pulling, Warriors tanking raid mobs). Also, what the knight's tanking proved is defensive isn't necessary after upgrades are established in an expansion, so removing it wouldn't really be a blow if it was replaced by something (IE a 15% built in Mitigation or whatever). Warriors mostly need some itemization upgrades, a removal of defensive (to be replaced by built in mitigation), a minor taunt upgrade, and then perhaps a few "utility" skills (I think a sort of motivational war cry type deal that helps raids in some shape or form would be a good way to come at it).
Monks are a similar problem, they had the nerf to their tanking ability, then the new PoP armor sets ended up with very low AC, making for a double nerf. If you were to recind the nerf or change the itemization it would fix that end of things at least. Second problem with monks is, you can't make them do more damage then Rogues or tank better then Warriors, which essentially means they are screwed unless you give them an entirely new role (and personally I don't think it should be pulling). Although I think that time monks are a force to be reckoned with (and thus changing them at lower levels will end up having a negative effect at the high end).
Rogues, frankly, i don't see a problem. They are sustained damage machines, in LDoN adventures rogues are just nuts. Might need something changed for raid environments, but frankly I think it would unbalance things in the normal grouping aspect.
Lastly, nerfs. Nerfs won't help things in this area. Unless the nerfs happen across the board. Rangers will take up where knights left off if knights are nerfed and warriors will still be in the s*****r. 0 Second CH chains, insane HPs on items, defensive, and a lack of minor upgrades are the main problem in my mind for warriors. None of that involves nerfing classes directly.
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Khabok
Rookie
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 65
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 11:59 Post subject:
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OK for those of you that have no clue why melees are complaining try reading This explanation from a Paladin and maybe you will have some clue of the problems and why the melees community is getting frustrated.
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Luturb
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 4042
Location: Livermore, California
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 12:27 Post subject:
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Another post by a Shadowknight that really spells things out well.
| Quote: | I am overpowered and I like it
It has become apparent to me that I am overpowered as a class. More specifically, compared to warriors.
Between personal experience, and what I have read, i find its hard to find many situations where I can not do what a warrior does. In fact, do it better in a lot of cases.... even in the cases where I might not perform as well, i dont perform much less better than.
I guess i should add that I am in a time capable guild.. and most of my peers have time gear etc.
Personally, I have only tanked one god in potime.. which is Cazic Thule. Due to my fearless ability, being able to have just shy of 10k hit points, easily having over 2k ac with buffs, and my consistant agro, i am a pretty good choice for this. Add in the fact that I dont even have to turn on attack the entire fight (no, not once) to keep agro and still get nice save my ass effects like divine intervention... its a pretty fun time.
Enough about raiding though... I like to xp too... I've always had it lucky in xp groups. Finding a group as a tank role is easy for me. Always has been.... My agro spells are many, and keeping hate off of any dps class is just a given. Not to mention I have the taunt skill, which i'm pretty clever at utilizing. It's great knowing that if i want to do an easy mission in LDoN all i need is a competant cleric and any 4 dps classes (gear is not a factor usually). Even on hard missions, I never seem to find myself grouped with a warrior..... why? Inconsistant agro, 1khp, and a defensive disc never seemed to keep people from tkaing me over a warrior... anyway
It's not always easy being a shadow knight, thats for sure. to be good at it takes skill just like any class... but I definately have an easy job.. at least compared to warriors.
That is really the part that irks me, I guess. I am overpowered as a tank class imo, and I do love it... and it makes me wonder why we have warriors at all now?
Okay, maybe I have some more examples of this thought...
During raid time, i seem to do a lot of work. When we do any event where adds are a variable, I am there tanking adds (along with other sk/pal). Sure, mezzable stuff a knight seems a logical choice for pre agro cc.. since we can do it with non dmg. But even beyond that, my agro is reliable, so even when unmezzables come I am in there again. using my way superior snap agro to control a mobs hate. (yeah, rangers help out on stuff that can be snared/rooted) Where is a warrior you might ask? Doing what they can i'm sure... just not much compared to what I can do.
I read that since the introduction of LDoN, wars have had the amount of hate they can generate increased... due to anger procs. and that, given a long enough time, war agro would exceed a knight. This is probably true in a long enough fight. Like a god or elem boss mob... but this leaves out two equally important things...
One being that not everything is a boss mob. Time trials come to my mind... when I am in time trials, i tank and hold agro.. simply because warriors just cant keep it over nuke/melee dps. half way thru the fight someone is getting summoned.. or the mob turns... Sure, tell your casters to learn to watch agro better when a war is tanking.. but why have a war tank when i can hold agro 100% of the fight and never have someone get summoned from over damaging? Same applies to trash clearing pretty much anywhere. Where are you Warriors?
And secondly, sure.. on a boss mob a warrior could eventually get enough agro to where I wouldnt be able to take it short of taunting probably...... but if you let me start getting agro first that same warrior will never see it short of using the same taunt. I dont care how many procs you add to how many weapons.
okay, enough rambling
I could go on and on about all the spells I get.. (like my neg 500 resist lifetap.. even necros dont get one that good), and all the focus effects I have access too.. (detremental and beneficial spell haste, DD focus, dot dmg focus, shielding, accuracy.. wow long list)......
I'm sure the things i've listed wont be enough to convince any other knight that warriors are getting f****d in the ass at the PoTime level... but just so yall know at least one SK knows:
I know i'm overpowered, and I like it.
Arex |
The writing is on the wall already, I don't even think the 'stand down' is necessary, Absor posted this week that there was a problem and they would try to have some specifics by the end of the month. These guys taling about "whining" are either 1) Blind or 2) know that their days of having the best of everything are coming to an end and are trying to do damage control.
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Yanbik
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 1575
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 12:57 Post subject:
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wah classes are better then me!!!
Im only in the boat that the hybrids were in for like 3+ years!
would be neat if they changed warcry to a lower recast time and a better groupish type buff, sorta like in d2
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Paden
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 9362
Location: North CAROLINA!
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 16:59 Post subject:
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If you ever played as a warrior some of you would understand.
I stayed a lone warrior alot during my time. I kept good gear and all(for the time)
But it kept getting rough for the warriors. I personally got Map when other classes were able to do critical hits! Should of kept that a warrior only thing.!
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Brael
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2122
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 17:35 Post subject:
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For some reason I'm not taking the post from an SK who I've never seen make another post or even heard of very seriously.
If warriors want to point fingers at tanking inbalances go look at Vie and DI, its not knights/gear that are unbalanced. In 3 more days youll see a monk tank Quarm, in 9 days you'll see a Ranger do it, sometime within two weeks you'll see a Shaman tank Bertox. Are you going to say those classes are all tanking to well also?
Luturb, bleh nm... I've already explained it on 2 different boards (sk/war ones) no point repeating it here to.
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Okami
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2242
Location: The new board
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Posted: 11/09/03 - 17:50 Post subject:
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all that will happen is they will lose some raid viability to gain some exp group ones.
Then they will whine again.
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