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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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 Posted: 10/13/04 - 21:07 Post subject: Third debate
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LMAO
"Bush outsourced Bin Laden to Afghan warlords" - Kerry
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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Posted: 10/13/04 - 21:27 Post subject:
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yeah that was a little out there
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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Posted: 10/13/04 - 21:31 Post subject:
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what about this tax loophole thing for outsourcing
this isnt the first time i've heard of it
is kerry on firm ground there?
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 10/13/04 - 21:36 Post subject:
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| Obmar wrote: | what about this tax loophole thing for outsourcing
this isnt the first time i've heard of it
is kerry on firm ground there? |
I don't know much about taxes on outsourcing..maybe someone else can defend the point.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 10/13/04 - 22:47 Post subject: Re: Third debate
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| Scrabler wrote: | LMAO
"Bush outsourced Bin Laden to Afghan warlords" - Kerry |
Yeah thats funny, cuz kerry sure does scream everytime an American dies in Iraq/Afghanistan. So we let some afghans fight for their own country, and now thats a bad thing. What a f*****g phony.
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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Posted: 10/13/04 - 22:49 Post subject:
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i think he's saying we arent over there in strong enough force ourselves
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goatface
Sir Postalot
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 1354
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Posted: 10/13/04 - 23:07 Post subject:
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| Quote: |
Here's the loophole:
...the ability to defer and often never pay taxes on foreign-earned profits. The result: foreign profits of U.S. companies end up taxed at a lower rate than their U.S. income, creating an incentive to invest overseas in factories. The jobs are where the factories are.
And here's how it works
The tax code is written in a way that allows companies not to pay the full 35% U.S. corporate tax rate on foreign income when that money remains invested overseas.
Backing up a step, here's how it works before the loophole: A company earns $100 million abroad in Lowtaxistan where the corporate tax rate is 20%. The foreign subsidiary pays that money to the U.S. parent. The parent then pays $35 million to the U.S. government and takes a credit for the 20% (or
$20 million) payment to the Lowtaxistan government. So the net to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service is $15 million.
But here's how it works with the loophole: The U.S. subsidiary simply keeps the money offshore and certifies to its accountants that the money is invested overseas. It never remits the money to the parent and so never pays the $15 million extra to Uncle Sam.
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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Posted: 10/13/04 - 23:12 Post subject:
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oof so kerry is pretty solid there
that loophole needs to close - whoever the f**k wins the presidency
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Conqueso
Luke Warm
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 388
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 00:58 Post subject:
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It is not that simple (close the loophole that is). There are a lot of other things that rely on that loophole. Many financial institutions and companies shift money into overseas accounts, overnight, and then shift the money back in the morning. It is a way to earn interest at a reduced tax rate. This debate is the first time that Kerry makes mention of the loophole specifically. He alluded to it in the 2nd debate but was vague. Bush counters Kerry's loophole closing by having "reduced tax" zones, which is what US cities do to entice business - give big tax breaks. Im going with Greenspan's opinion of Kerry's "outsource plan" - it would be a disaster for the US economy.
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 01:39 Post subject:
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It needs changing if it is being misued and the result is more outsourcing and offshoring.
the coporate incentive to use this loophole must be closed.
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Tura
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 4865
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 02:31 Post subject:
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sheesh with all the anti bush sigs rolling around here I should start using my own
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khrath
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8750
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 02:41 Post subject:
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Kerry really offended me with a couple of his little remarks he kept making, talking down on important issues like they were a big joke.
I'm glad he won't win this election.
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Merican
Sir Postalot
Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 1491
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 03:36 Post subject:
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| Khrath wrote: | Kerry...
I'm glad he won't win this election. |
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Kurel
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1877
Location: Cali
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 05:53 Post subject:
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I missed it. :/
I really like how CNN tries to bill me $14 a month to watch the debate, and C-Span's links are broken.
Trying Fox News but so far, no luck.
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Conqueso
Luke Warm
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 388
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 10:12 Post subject:
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| Obmar wrote: | | It needs changing if it is being misued and the result is more outsourcing and offshoring. The coporate incentive to use this loophole must be closed. |
Heh, taxes are a small part of outsourcing. I will give you an example with the semiconductor industry in Singapore. They do the typical tax breaks over x amount of years. On top of that, the goverment there invested 80% of the building costs. On top of that, the labor costs for the facility are a lot lower and Singapore is a central hub for distributing raw materials in and final product out to Asia. An entry-level process engineer in semiconductor makes about 40k. In Singapore, the engineer makes 20-25k. The major factors that prevent more fabs from opening is land, stability of the region (Singapore is very stable but the regions around it arent.), and the experience of its workforce. The other problem is that the government owns 51% of the factories there.
In China, the picture is a lot worse. The government required cell phone manufacturers to build in China if they wanted to sell cell phones in China so companies began building there. One facility, that was being built in the mid-90s, was cancelled due to people stealing everything while it was being built. The entire infrastructure (power, water, waste, roads) had to be built by the factory. Fortunately, environmental regulations are so lax, a lot of corners could be cut. Also, in order to do business in China, a lot of "gifts" have to be done to the government. This causes a lot of red tape and usually only the largest companies can do business there. There are some breaks on taxes but there are plenty of other costs involved such as the work force is not as highly educated. Although an engineer there costs 15-20k, you need 2-3 engineers to do the job of 1 here.
No, taxes are not the primary reason for outsourcing. There are many other factors that weigh more heavily in the decision. Labor and material costs are some of them. The "tax loophole" at first glance appears as an easy "fix all" but it isnt. Also, many companies that remain in the US use that loophole to generate more revenue to use in the US. I don't see the tax loophole as the "holy grail". I think the "reduced tax zones" proposed by Bush is a better alternative.
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 10:32 Post subject:
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burn in ating
the country side
burn in ating
the chi-neese
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 10:43 Post subject:
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| Conqueso wrote: | | Obmar wrote: | | It needs changing if it is being misued and the result is more outsourcing and offshoring. The coporate incentive to use this loophole must be closed. |
Heh, taxes are a small part of outsourcing. I will give you an example with the semiconductor industry in Singapore. They do the typical tax breaks over x amount of years. On top of that, the goverment there invested 80% of the building costs. On top of that, the labor costs for the facility are a lot lower and Singapore is a central hub for distributing raw materials in and final product out to Asia. An entry-level process engineer in semiconductor makes about 40k. In Singapore, the engineer makes 20-25k. The major factors that prevent more fabs from opening is land, stability of the region (Singapore is very stable but the regions around it arent.), and the experience of its workforce. The other problem is that the government owns 51% of the factories there.
In China, the picture is a lot worse. The government required cell phone manufacturers to build in China if they wanted to sell cell phones in China so companies began building there. One facility, that was being built in the mid-90s, was cancelled due to people stealing everything while it was being built. The entire infrastructure (power, water, waste, roads) had to be built by the factory. Fortunately, environmental regulations are so lax, a lot of corners could be cut. Also, in order to do business in China, a lot of "gifts" have to be done to the government. This causes a lot of red tape and usually only the largest companies can do business there. There are some breaks on taxes but there are plenty of other costs involved such as the work force is not as highly educated. Although an engineer there costs 15-20k, you need 2-3 engineers to do the job of 1 here.
No, taxes are not the primary reason for outsourcing. There are many other factors that weigh more heavily in the decision. Labor and material costs are some of them. The "tax loophole" at first glance appears as an easy "fix all" but it isnt. Also, many companies that remain in the US use that loophole to generate more revenue to use in the US. I don't see the tax loophole as the "holy grail". I think the "reduced tax zones" proposed by Bush is a better alternative. |
I work for one of the largest Global IT service outsourcing companies - I understand outsourcing. Thanks though for the lecture, on why people outsource.
The tax loophole is not the primary reason, I never said that. The primary reason is reduced labor costs. But guess what, the US has no control over that. The last thing we need is our own government incentivising corporations to move jobs oversees.
Stop misinterpreting my words. It is not a holy grail, it is one cog in the wheel, but It needs to change.
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Ikkan
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 3086
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 10:47 Post subject:
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Obmar, you do have valid points when you bring up outsourcing of jobs and the tax loophole that is currently in place there, and I agree that it should be closed or reduced, but in terms of Kerry disliking outsourcing all-together, he really needs to think of the big picture rather than just the U.S.'s. Think about all of the jobs that are currently insourced in the U.S. and if we just stop outsourcing, that means people in other countries lose jobs, so what will they do? They will pull out the companies they have outsourced to the United States and we would lose a hell of a lot of jobs.
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 11:07 Post subject:
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I never said stop outsourcing.
I said stop incentivising corporations to do it. Why does our government need to help defray the costs of offshoring? These are huge coporations, if they want to save a buck by sending your support call to India, let them pay for it, in full.
Without the incentives, these companies won't fold. In fact the pie might look a little smaller, and some Americans might still have jobs.
That's my point.
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Yellow Journalist
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 1973
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 11:31 Post subject:
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Kerry is pretty sharp... hes not afraid to discuss numbers. Its important to me and should be important to EVERY American the real issues that directly effect us.. Kerry is more focused on things that hit home, Which is the way it should be in respect to our Nation.
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Qaldyin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1346
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 11:49 Post subject:
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Good call.
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The Gossipmonger
Luke Warm
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 193
Location: The Balkans
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 12:00 Post subject: Re: Third debate
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| Scrabler wrote: | LMAO
"Bush outsourced Bin Laden to Afghan warlords" - Kerry |
You're not even old enough to vote fuckface, so your opinion or idea of joke doesn't mean shit, go back to the nursery school.
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Conqueso
Luke Warm
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 388
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 12:59 Post subject:
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| Obmar wrote: |
I work for one of the largest Global IT service outsourcing companies - I understand outsourcing. Thanks though for the lecture, on why people outsource.
The tax loophole is not the primary reason, I never said that. The primary reason is reduced labor costs. But guess what, the US has no control over that. The last thing we need is our own government incentivising corporations to move jobs oversees.
Stop misinterpreting my words. It is not a holy grail, it is one cog in the wheel, but It needs to change. |
I worked for the world's largest equipment supplier for the semiconductor industry. I was affected by outsourcing. There is nothing worse than training 4 engineers for overseas and starting up the facilities that will be used to replace you. (I refused to train them. Not much I could do about the startup.) All the time, I had to keep an eye on these engineers since they were trying to get their hands on technology that would not be going overseas. Personally, I would rather see more action on trade policies and technology transfer rather than a tax loophole. That loophole affects a lot of things other than outsourcing and I can see the Democrats really screwing things up. Clinton "screwed the pooch" with his stance on allowing technology transfer from the US. I see the same thing with Kerry and his ideas to stop outsourcing. "Democrats wanting to fix taxes to help people" goes together like "Republicans wanting socialized health care."
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 13:03 Post subject:
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well at least you comprehended one of my posts finally
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themy
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1153
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 13:08 Post subject: Re: Third debate
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| The Gossipmonger wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: | LMAO
"Bush outsourced Bin Laden to Afghan warlords" - Kerry |
You're not even old enough to vote fuckface, so your opinion or idea of joke doesn't mean shit, go back to the nursery school. |
how does one's opinion not mean anything just because they are under the age of 18? once they turn 18 do they gain some special ability and their opinions actually count? this isn't a game, it's real life and scrabler can say whatever he wants. not to mention he was just laughing at a stupid quote by kerry.
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Conqueso
Luke Warm
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 388
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 13:14 Post subject:
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| Obmar wrote: | | well at least you comprehended one of my posts finally |
Hmm, maybe we both misunderstood each other heh. I admit, from reading the original posts, I thought you believed the tax loophole was the fix all.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 10/14/04 - 16:29 Post subject: Re: Third debate
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| The Gossipmonger wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: | LMAO
"Bush outsourced Bin Laden to Afghan warlords" - Kerry |
You're not even old enough to vote fuckface, so your opinion or idea of joke doesn't mean shit, go back to the nursery school. |
My interest in polotics is warranted as much as yours, if not more. We both have to live under whoever wins but I'll also be enlisting during this next presidential term.
So please, f**k off.
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