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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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 Posted: 11/10/03 - 15:35 Post subject: The truth behind Bush's destruction of the U.S. Economy -NWS
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Before reading remember this :-
1. The Economist is an economically right wing (although politically libertarian) source.
2. It *adored* Reagan/Thatcher.
http://www.economist.com/world/na/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=2189237
America is f****d. I really can't wait for the dollar crash, it will be... entertaining.
Regards,
Eduin
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WheresNWS
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 6448
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 15:44 Post subject:
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Stalingrad 2?
News flash...America is aware of deficits, which are still well below their peak. As someone who supposedly takes "actuarial studies", I would figure that you would know the difference between open and closed systems. The federal government's budget is an open system and therefore subject to change through policy...i.e. spending cuts.
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Or if you're already guild member ready to share some real PvP experience…
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Akronn
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8752
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 15:52 Post subject:
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Funny, I touched upon alot of this just days ago, didn't I?
We can balance the budget through spending cuts and more responsible tax programs, but Bush's plan doesn't do either. This very article references that point, and it's a fact you can find anywhere else (expect perhaps Coulter's column).
It must change.
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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 15:55 Post subject:
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| WheresNWS wrote: | Stalingrad 2?
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Of course, American troops aren't being killed daily in Iraq.
Oh wait...
Regards,
Eduin
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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 15:58 Post subject:
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| Akronn wrote: | Funny, I touched upon alot of this just days ago, didn't I?
We can balance the budget through spending cuts and more responsible tax programs, but Bush's plan doesn't do either. This very article references that point, and it's a fact you can find anywhere else (expect perhaps Coulter's column).
It must change. |
It won't change. Americans are too stupid to ever vote for it. They don't think long term, even if it's pointed out to them, even if they do think about the future, they seem to ignore it or dismiss it as "liberal propoganda".
American will not change till the dollar crashes. And it *will* crash within hte next 15 years. And when that happens, all you twenty- and thirty-somethings can wave bye-bye to *any* retirement savings you have amassed until then.
I'm not tyring to be funny or smart. I just see no possibility whatsoever of America getting out of its politico-economic hole.
Regards,
Eduin
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WheresNWS
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 6448
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 15:59 Post subject:
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| Akronn wrote: | Funny, I touched upon alot of this just days ago, didn't I?
We can balance the budget through spending cuts and more responsible tax programs, but Bush's plan doesn't do either. This very article references that point, and it's a fact you can find anywhere else (expect perhaps Coulter's column).
It must change. |
Geez. Your obsession is worse than I thought. Now you even bring up Ann Coulter when she DIDN'T say anything about a particular topic! lol
Anyway, I said the deficit argument (which is coming up since the economy argument is settled) is overblown. Here's a nice quote from the article which expresses exactly what I was telling you.
| Quote: | In the short-term, America's fiscal shift has been dramatic but hardly dangerous. Growing deficits flow naturally from a sharp economic slowdown, as tax revenues fall and benefit spending rises. Part of America's fiscal deterioration over the past three years has come from a slower economy. In addition, tax revenues fell further than anyone expected after the stockmarket bubble burst.
Spending increases and tax cuts have reinforced that trend, worsening the fiscal position but at the same time bolstering the economy. Few disagree that the administration's aggressive use of fiscal stimuli—along with record low interest rates—helped stave off a sharper global economic downturn. And with plenty of slack still in the economy, today's budget deficit is unlikely to squeeze out private investment. Look only at the overall deficit and at the past three years, and America's fiscal deterioration hardly seems reckless.
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I never disagreed with Greenspan. I simply said that the solution does not come from raising taxes and that the problem does not come from spending on the war on terrorism or Bush's tax cut. The solution, as I said before, is federal budget cuts. Clamoring over this issue is stupid, as it is both necessary and is something that will fix itself in years to come.
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WheresNWS
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 6448
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 16:04 Post subject:
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| Eduin wrote: | | WheresNWS wrote: | Stalingrad 2?
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Of course, American troops aren't being killed daily in Iraq.
Oh wait...
Regards,
Eduin |
I didn't know Germany actually captured Stalingrad! Though unfortunate, the death rate in Iraq is still about 1/5 the murder rate of California...which is equal in area to Iraq.
edit: It's also about half of your s****y country's annual murder rate...and the Iraq figure includes accidents.
Last edited by WheresNWS on 11/10/03 - 16:14; edited 1 time in total
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lotek
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 1598
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 16:15 Post subject:
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Its ok. When the us dollar collapses we will just anex the fertile land of scottland. The abundance of resources, plus the increase of tax revenue from the hardworking scottish will save us.
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 16:17 Post subject:
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| Eduin wrote: | And when that happens, all you twenty- and thirty-somethings can wave bye-bye to *any* retirement savings you have amassed until then.
Regards,
Eduin |
As much as I dislike Bush this scenario was always a reality. I have known since I was 10 that I would never have social security and that I'm just paying for old farts now to die off so the monster can die. We have to take more responsibility in our own future and not leave it up to our government, this is well known.
the other shock to the system was when the dot com buble burst and all those 401ks that were padded with stupid tech filled with worthless stock options got called in and destroyed all those who thought they would be millionares.
There will always be drama in American economics because as PT Barnum once said "there is a sucker born every minute".
I doubt it will detroy the fabric of the socity though. Americans, by and lage are some of the most resourceful people on the planet. Dispite the politics.
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Pankrat
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 603
Location: Land of Paranoia
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 16:20 Post subject:
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In addition to never taking Stalingrad, wasn't there something like 500K plus Germans killed and captured there (Stalingrad)? Not quite apples to apples.
In regards to this article, basically it is saying that tax cuts + continued increase in Federal spending has a short term economic stimulus effect but long term causes problems because of the federal deficit.
Solution seems simple, cut Federal spending(gradually if need be)... is that what the democrats will do if elected? They have already promised to raise taxes and increase spending... so where would that leave us?
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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 16:28 Post subject:
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| Banzai wrote: | | As much as I dislike Bush this scenario was always a reality. I have known since I was 10 that I would never have social security and that I'm just paying for old farts now to die off so the monster can die. We have to take more responsibility in our own future and not leave it up to our government, this is well known. |
No, you're missing the gist of the argument.
I've no interest in government retirement savings schemes - all (in every country) are lies - they are just additional taxation, nothing is ever collectivised to pay for the retirement of the people who pay in. It gets spent when it is received.
What you need to think about is what the *f**k* happens to your savings, your private pension fund, your stocks and your T-Bills when the value of the dollar crashes by over 50%. Then what happens to your pension fund and your stocks as the vlaue of them slides furhter than the initial shock of the currency crunch.
If you want to know, go read up and find out what happened to private pensionholders and savers in Argentina (who held Argentinian stocks and Argentinian based pension funds). Basically, you lose it all.
It is inevitable that *private* savings are effected by *public* mismanagement. If you're smart, you'll time it right and get into the slower-growing but far more stable Euro-zone stocks and based-pensions when the right time comes.
Otherwise, you'll end up with nothing.
Regards,
Eduin
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Paco
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 12940
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 16:33 Post subject:
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 16:35 Post subject:
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| Eduin wrote: |
What you need to think about is what the *f**k* happens to your savings, your private pension fund, your stocks and your T-Bills when the value of the dollar crashes by over 50%. Then what happens to your pension fund and your stocks as the vlaue of them slides furhter than the initial shock of the currency crunch.
Regards,
Eduin |
This is why I brought up the tech bubble bursting. We get it. Shit happens. The market tanked and everyone pretty much got worked. Bush will be gone in a year and some "bleeding heart" will spread the wealth and p**s off a whole new generation of republicans.
It's a cycle not a stright line. Fortunatly we can rotate out our direction every 4 years or this picture would be a lot more grim. We don't have to live with s****y decissions for long.
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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 16:39 Post subject:
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| Pankrat wrote: | In regards to this article, basically it is saying that tax cuts + continued increase in Federal spending has a short term economic stimulus effect but long term causes problems because of the federal deficit.
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No, not quite. You miss a *very* important part. The MEDIUM TERM effect is an economic *NEGATIVE STIMULUS* because of Keynsian Crowding Out due to the very short term stimulus of government spending based "growth". It's not really growth at all, it just looks that way in National Income Accounting.
| Pankrat wrote: |
Solution seems simple, cut Federal spending(gradually if need be)... is that what the democrats will do if elected? They have already promised to raise taxes and increase spending... so where would that leave us? |
Kind of just as bad, with maybe less crime (due to reduced Relative Poverty) but overall just as bad.
And with a political system in which it is virtually impossible to choose other than between those two near-identical doctrines, America is f****d.
But more-over, the "solution" you see as simple, isn't actually a solution. Avoiding the fact that it cannot be voted for, the American system as it stands today has created unsustainable growth based on government funded expansion. It is very similar to what Japan did and led up to the inevitable late 80s to late 90s crash of the Japanese economy. This is an inevitable outcome of such fiscal stimulation
But while Japan took care and while stimulation actually balanced its budget and trade situation, therefore minimising the currency crunch, America has no such safeguards in place.
In the scheme of things, the dollar and the US stockmarket (even after 18 months of general decline) are massively over-valued. If you remove hte fiscal stimulus *now* as opposed to when it becomes impossible to avoid, you *still* have the crash, you *still* end up with a f****d economy, currency crunch and savings wipe out.
America has been walking an economic tightrope since the late 70s, one which inevitably leads to a precipice (some might argue it has walked this since the 50s or even the late 30s but that's a more comlicated argument). The problem is that the precipice is there, and jumping off the tightrope before you get there still leads the exact same way. Down.
Regards,
Eduin
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Guest
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 16:50 Post subject:
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Ed, you still dye your beautiful locks? And I'm wondering, did you forget to put your dentures in for this photo?
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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 16:53 Post subject:
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| Banzai wrote: | | It's a cycle not a stright line. Fortunatly we can rotate out our direction every 4 years or this picture would be a lot more grim. We don't have to live with s****y decissions for long. |
You're still missing it.
The bubble is irrelevant, it is just that - a bubble. What is the problem is that the general trend of upward growth has been continually exagerated by a continued, lasting, fiscal stimulus which has *always* focused on money creation and never on investment.
The spending patterns of other countries, say Germany, have always focused on invesment, such as education, social equalisation, infrastructure. In America the spending has always focused on capital projects to create industrial wealth not infrastructure. This is unsustainable in simple economic terms.
The economic forces of the tech bubble are *nothing* compared to those of the underlying fiscal mehtodology of both Republican and Democrat regimes over the last decades. That's where the problem stems from.
Regards,
Eduin
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 17:24 Post subject:
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| Eduin wrote: | | Banzai wrote: | | It's a cycle not a stright line. Fortunatly we can rotate out our direction every 4 years or this picture would be a lot more grim. We don't have to live with s****y decissions for long. |
You're still missing it.
The bubble is irrelevant, it is just that - a bubble. What is the problem is that the general trend of upward growth has been continually exagerated by a continued, lasting, fiscal stimulus which has *always* focused on money creation and never on investment.
The spending patterns of other countries, say Germany, have always focused on invesment, such as education, social equalisation, infrastructure. In America the spending has always focused on capital projects to create industrial wealth not infrastructure. This is unsustainable in simple economic terms.
The economic forces of the tech bubble are *nothing* compared to those of the underlying fiscal mehtodology of both Republican and Democrat regimes over the last decades. That's where the problem stems from.
Regards,
Eduin |
It’s just an inherently different philosophy. It’s way too early to tell if the USA system will be an innovation or a flop in the spectrum of civilization. It could be that capitalization of socialist programs is the best thing that has ever happened to a socity as far as motivating innovation OR we could find that the government has to keep the standards at a specific level to endure. Only time will tell. So far the climate has work for Americans for a little over 200 years but that’s a drop in the bucket next to Europe, but the rules could have changed and we are just the experiment to test the water.
Regardless I believe the US will survive and economic downturn because ultimately we export so many things the world depends on. Not only in raw resources but innovation and culture (as canned as it may be). Love us or hate us we just put out too much cool shit to not strongly survive in even the most desperate economy. Kids will by the next boy band, adults will have to buy Windows for there computers, some poor slob in Poland will eat a McDonalds cheeseburger today. You will walk by someone who is drinking a coke. We are a virus that the world has been infected with and even if we resorted back to the barter system the US economy would have a large stack of chips.
Having a dollar worth only fifty cents would suck, don’t get me wrong but things change and it will all work out.
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WheresNWS
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 6448
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 17:38 Post subject:
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| Eduin wrote: |
No, not quite. You miss a *very* important part. The MEDIUM TERM effect is an economic *NEGATIVE STIMULUS* because of Keynsian Crowding Out due to the very short term stimulus of government spending based "growth". It's not really growth at all, it just looks that way in National Income Accounting. |
Wrong. Government spending spiked only slightly (0.3%) due to Iraq the last quarter. Most of the economic growth came from the fact that there is simply demand for it. Inventory is low and productivity is at its highest levels due in large part to the success of America's technological investments. The economy is cyclical and every time there's a downturn, liberals swoop in to enact various social safety net projects which become permanent. The US actually has the rare opportunity of expanding its influence even further. I'm hoping Republicans, who will likely still control both the congress and presidency after November next year, will revisit their old roots of government reduction.
But, plain and simply...America is not f****d. As I pointed out, the federal budget is an open system with highly variable income and expenditures that are controlled by a political process. Economic policy is reviewed and altered annually, so the very claim that America is "f****d", based on whatever you learned in "actuarial studies" today only shows your ignorance of dynamic systems. Also, you're very fat. Very...veeeeeery...fat.
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Frehya
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2398
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 17:45 Post subject:
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LOL Paco.
though I must say, those mammaries lack a certain amount of structural integrity.
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scrotum
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 828
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 17:49 Post subject:
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WTG Ed  Kbarr, you irrelevent f**k, go f**k yourself
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kireol
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 02 Aug 2003
Posts: 9517
Location: Royal Oak, MI
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 19:59 Post subject:
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Eduin, as usual missed 3 very important facts, as he laughs and thinks his country is somehow, someway, superior.
1)If the U.S. dollar crashes, so does the rest of the world.
2)The last quarter was the biggest U.S. econmic jump in nearly 20 years, while YOUR country's economy took a shit
http://money.cnn.com/2003/11/10/news/economy/economy_outlook.reut/index.htm
3)Microsoft's sales for last QUARTER was 8 quadrillion. http://www2.barchart.com/profile.asp?sym=MSFT&code=BSTOC
The total YEARLY budget for your COUNTRY was 15 quadrillion.
or in other words, in 6 months, a U.S. companys sales is about twice what your whole country's governments budget is.
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eminem
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 675
Location: Helaware
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 20:05 Post subject: Re: The truth behind Bush's destruction of the U.S. Economy
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I. Hate. You.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 20:28 Post subject:
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| Eduin wrote: | | Akronn wrote: | Funny, I touched upon alot of this just days ago, didn't I?
We can balance the budget through spending cuts and more responsible tax programs, but Bush's plan doesn't do either. This very article references that point, and it's a fact you can find anywhere else (expect perhaps Coulter's column).
It must change. |
It won't change. Americans are too stupid to ever vote for it. They don't think long term, even if it's pointed out to them, even if they do think about the future, they seem to ignore it or dismiss it as "liberal propoganda".
American will not change till the dollar crashes. And it *will* crash within hte next 15 years. And when that happens, all you twenty- and thirty-somethings can wave bye-bye to *any* retirement savings you have amassed until then.
I'm not tyring to be funny or smart. I just see no possibility whatsoever of America getting out of its politico-economic hole.
Regards,
Eduin |
Thats why i buy gold and silver metal and not stocks. Not everyone believes in paper scrip as a real currency.
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Guest
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 20:41 Post subject:
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| scrotum wrote: | | WTG Ed Kbarr, you irrelevent f**k, go f**k yourself |
I'm not irrelevent, I'm rich.
And will be no matter what the dollar does now or in the next 15 years:)
Why argue about it when I can just shit on his giant, bottle blond head.
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Romey
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 218
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 21:49 Post subject:
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Dear god, WheresNWS scares me with his > knowledge of everything. /bow, sir i need to invest 67k that i inherrited, please do tell what stocks and when I should invest it....My companys stock is suposedly about to split ( suposedly ) NovaStar...NFI i think is the ticker..And so far for the last 2 years the company has matched 100% in 401K etc ...Maybe i should buy some gold and burry it in the back yard!!
-V
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 21:55 Post subject:
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that woman is hot
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Janoth
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 3135
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 21:57 Post subject:
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| Romey wrote: | Dear god, WheresNWS scares me with his > knowledge of everything. /bow, sir i need to invest 67k that i inherrited, please do tell what stocks and when I should invest it....My companys stock is suposedly about to split ( suposedly ) NovaStar...NFI i think is the ticker..And so far for the last 2 years the company has matched 100% in 401K etc ...Maybe i should buy some gold and burry it in the back yard!!
-V |
Yes bury it in your backyard and PM me detailed info on where you live. Thx
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NinjaBurger
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 2800
Location: St. Louis
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 22:51 Post subject: Re: The truth behind Bush's destruction of the U.S. Economy
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WheresNWS
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 6448
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 22:53 Post subject:
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| Romey wrote: | Dear god, WheresNWS scares me with his > knowledge of everything. /bow, sir i need to invest 67k that i inherrited, please do tell what stocks and when I should invest it....My companys stock is suposedly about to split ( suposedly ) NovaStar...NFI i think is the ticker..And so far for the last 2 years the company has matched 100% in 401K etc ...Maybe i should buy some gold and burry it in the back yard!!
-V |
OMEX.OB
There's gold in them thar ships! Aaaaaarrrrgh!
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Paco
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 12940
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: 11/10/03 - 23:45 Post subject:
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| Frehya wrote: | LOL Paco.
though I must say, those mammaries lack a certain amount of structural integrity. |
heather graham's b00bs!
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