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sinrakin
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 7044
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 Posted: 07/25/03 - 10:40 Post subject: The highly trained elite Israeli army
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I don't know - is accidentally pressing the trigger on your machinegun a real problem for soldiers? Is it normal to point machine guns at five year old children?
| Quote: | JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, in Washington for White House talks on Friday, urged President Bush to stop Israel expanding Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Shortly before the meeting, an Israeli soldier killed five-year-old Palestinian boy Mohammed Qabha and wounded his six- and seven-year-old sisters as they sat in their father's car at a northern West Bank checkpoint, witnesses said.
The army acknowledged killing the boy but called it a mishap in which a soldier accidentally pressed the trigger of his machinegun. |
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Akronn
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8752
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 11:00 Post subject:
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whoops! 
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 12:00 Post subject:
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accidents happen, whats the big deal?
how many US soldiers are killed every year in training accidents or by friendly fire?
I am sure he had the gun aimed at the car which is probably standard procedure at checkpoints, and he f****d up and fired.
Tragic, yes
1 small example of a f**k up, yes
Gross incompetence in an entire army, hell no
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Ciladar
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 3765
Location: Northern New Jersey
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 12:18 Post subject:
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Vekril....you seem angered
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 12:29 Post subject:
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How can you kill one and wound 2 by accident?
I'm not down on the Israel army but this one solder seems to have reflex issues.
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 12:33 Post subject:
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ever heard of an automatic weapon Banz? they spray a few bullets at a time, and if aimed at a car it would logically injure those inside - either way the key words in the entire incident are "admitted accident"
I find it aggravating that Sinraken posts a topic about this, but when Israeli children are intentionally slaughtered by the terrorists (or freedom fighters as Arabist Reuters calls them) he defends the Palestinian resistance against the evil Israeli occupiers...
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Wulfheart
Sir Postalot
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 1478
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 12:35 Post subject:
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I bet that if it was the other way around Vekril would be saying it was no accident. Buts that just my opinion.
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Syke
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2976
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 12:45 Post subject:
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Accident or not, it happened. And they are evil occupiers. Damnit.
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 12:46 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: |
ever heard of an automatic weapon Banz?
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Yes, have you heard of the word accuracy? So the guy is trained on his little boy target threat with the finger on the trigger.
Opps, squeezed a little and maybe 3 rounds go off... hitting 3 poeple?
And for your information I have fired automatic weapons before and with my finger on the trigger I was able to pop off one round. Why he was in a position to rap his finger on the trigger for this "target" is beyond me.
That kind of incompetence takes work.
And just for you, yes it's sad when Jews get killed too... happy? Since we are off topic now maybe we should throw in a Bill Clinton for good measure?
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 12:48 Post subject:
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look at the track record of both sides Wulf...
Palestinians target any Jews they can from infant to senior, terror being the objective. Terrorists claim responsibility for such attacks and show no remorse.
Israel targets the militants and terrorists, and while at times it could make more of an effort to limit collateral damage, it has yet to intentionally make anyone but a militant its primary target. And if terrorist leaders did not hide themselves within civilian populations, there would be no collateral damage. When Israel kills children or other non-combatants it issues an official apology and statement of regret.
Israel does some bad things, some of the lifestyle and economic restrictions are oppressive, but they don't target non-combatants indiscriminately like the terrorists do. And if the terrorism stopped, so would the restrictions...
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 12:50 Post subject:
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Reminds me of this story:
http://ussliberty.org/
8P
Pick your battles Vek, if you back a horse when it kicks you in the face it makes you look like a zealot.
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Dapht
Luke Warm
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 348
Location: ALaska
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 12:54 Post subject:
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My guess is that the windows may have been up... In that case then glass breakage would possibly = injuries. Now I could be totally off base with that but that is my assumption. And even a mere flesh wound is still a wound.
Hell we had something like that here on base. No deaths, but a guy put a hole in a wall and a bullet in a conference room table during an exercise. I have never agreed with the definition of "friendly fire". Hell if I went to war with half the people in my office they would be my first target. I have seen them try and shoot a gun. It isnt pretty.
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 13:05 Post subject:
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Possibly.
Need more details on the incident.
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Kikk
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 695
Location: Jacksonville, NC
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 13:09 Post subject:
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The way Israel treats the Palestinians is no better than how the Germans treated the Jews before WW II.
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 13:23 Post subject:
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I disagree wholeheartedly with that statement Kikk, but beyond that let me ask you a question.
What did the Jews do to Germany prior to WWII except function as a highly successful segment of society? nothing
Did Jews hate average Germans or preach for the destruction of Germany? nope
What is the reason for most of hte crippling Israeli sanctions against the Palestinians? terrorist actions against Israel, security
What do Palestinians and especially their children learn in mosques and their schoolbooks? Israel is the devil, Jews are dogs, etc etc
What does the charter of the PLO still call for? the destruction of the state of Israel
you are not even comparing apples to oranges here Kikk and really stretching in your condemnation of Israel
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and Banz, that Liberty incident occurred over 35 years ago in the middle of a war, the details are disputed, new evidence came out about it as recently as this month - bringing up a single highly disputed occurrence from decades ago only shows your agenda, and does nothing to strengthen any arguments you might have
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Akronn
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8752
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 13:43 Post subject:
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I'm not going to go off on a tangent here, but alot less of our troops die due to friendly fire and accidents than they'd like you to believe.
Choppers going down in the wind??? Only because they're riddled with holes.
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:17 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: |
and Banz, that Liberty incident occurred over 35 years ago in the middle of a war, the details are disputed, new evidence came out about it as recently as this month - bringing up a single highly disputed occurrence from decades ago only shows your agenda, and does nothing to strengthen any arguments you might have |
I didn't say it was topical, I said it was reminiscent of another Israeli guffaw.
And yes the details obviously would be in dispute but the fact remains Israelis are capable, just like everyone else, of doing stupid shit. I throw this in your face because you act as if they are infallible.
Get off the hours and stop trying to make the Jews victims in everything.
I could tell you why the Jews were slaughtered in WWII, not that I condone it, but there was a degree of responsibility involved. If you don't understand that then you are playing the ignorant victim card and it doesn’t suite and "intellectual" like yourself.
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Kikk
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 695
Location: Jacksonville, NC
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:19 Post subject:
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I don't condemn Israel Vekril but for you to state that this is all the Palestinians fault is f*****g ridiculous and makes you look like a f*****g blind idiot. THE JEWS, SINCE THE INCEPTION OF ISRAEL, HAVE CONDEMMED AND DISCRIMINATED AGAINST THEIR NEIHBORS.
In case you have not read your m***********g history books; this all started WELL f*****g BEFORE PALESTINIANS RESORTED TO TERRORISM. As a matter of fact if you want to blame anyone for starting the terrorism game you better look f*****g closer to home.
Every f*****g Pro Israeli web site you go to you will find the words "never again". That simple statement means more than what meets the eye. Jews have made a pact with themselves that they will do whatever is necessary to keep what happened during WW II from happening again--EVEN IF IT MEANS COMMITTING THE VERY SAME ACTS COMMITED AGAINST THEM. Explain to me again how this makes "their" side any more correct than the Palestinians side?
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Kaladam
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1110
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:23 Post subject:
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| Banzai wrote: |
I could tell you why the Jews were slaughtered in WWII, not that I condone it, but there was a degree of responsibility involved. If you don't understand that then you are playing the ignorant victim card and it doesn’t suite and "intellectual" like yourself. |
There was no degree of responsibility involved you f*****g retard. Hitler needed a scapegoat to promote his new 'nationalistic germany.' He needed something to pull all the Germans together for the same cause. The jews were it.
And Vek, why do you still argue these posts? You know its worthless.
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Kikk
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 695
Location: Jacksonville, NC
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:25 Post subject:
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And that "new evidence" you speak of is the same 35 year old evidence that has been gone over with a fine tooth comb hundreds of times Vekril with the "exact" same conclusion every time but once--that conclusion what that Israel knew without a doubt that it was an American ship they were firing upon.
But yes I am sure you are more willing to believe an article from one person in an agency when every single person above them made the exact opposite conclusion.
Thats Vekril for ya...
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Kikk
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 695
Location: Jacksonville, NC
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:32 Post subject:
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I believe all three sides were to blame. The Jews, the Nazi's and everyone else who was too afraid to stand up against them.
For f***s sake over 6 million jews were led to camps to be slaughtered over many years and ONLY A FEW RESISTED. And it was not only the Jews that were slaughtered either. Hundreds of thousands of Germans who tried in different ways to help the Jews were killed as well.
I understand that these people would not have found it easy to find weapons and that the German war machine was huge but Jesus f*****g Christ this went on for years. There is no way in hell that the vast majority of the people killed in these camps did not know what fate was ahead of them.
The same goes for the German people, Poles, Hungarians, and everyone else that was too afraid to stand up. And hell I will even place some of the blame on the Americans who were too slow to act.
I would have rather been gunned down in the street making a futile attempt to resist than to be led to my death after years of hard labor in a concentration camp.
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Kaladam
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1110
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:36 Post subject:
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| Kikk wrote: | I believe all three sides were to blame. The Jews, the Nazi's and everyone else who was too afraid to stand up against them.
For f***s sake over 6 million jews were led to camps to be slaughtered over many years and ONLY A FEW RESISTED. And it was not only the Jews that were slaughtered either. Hundreds of thousands of Germans who tried in different ways to help the Jews were killed as well.
I understand that these people would not have found it easy to find weapons and that the German war machine was huge but Jesus f*****g Christ this went on for years. There is no way in hell that the vast majority of the people killed in these camps did not know what fate was ahead of them.
The same goes for the German people, Poles, Hungarians, and everyone else that was too afraid to stand up. And hell I will even place some of the blame on the Americans who were too slow to act.
I would have rather been gunned down in the street making a futile attempt to resist than to be led to my death after years of hard labor in a concentration camp. |
Same here Kikk, the thing is these people were demoralized before they were killed. They didn't know they were going to die at first, they were just made to work in horrendous conditions (worse than the Palestinians, OHZ NOZ!) and they weren't given anything to eat. After that, you can try to fight back, but it wont work. You wont have the willpower.
And a big plus to that, if you did fight back, the majority of the camps deaths would be on your head because they'd make you watch as they gunned down just about every single living jew in there. Nobody would want that on their conscience.
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Kikk
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 695
Location: Jacksonville, NC
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:37 Post subject:
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If you mean worthless to use misconceptions, half-truths and outright lies about the history between these two people pog then yes you are correct.
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Kaladam
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1110
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:39 Post subject:
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| Kikk wrote: | | If you mean worthless to use misconceptions, half-truths and outright lies about the history between these two people pog then yes you are correct. |
Who were you talking to there?
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Kikk
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 695
Location: Jacksonville, NC
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:42 Post subject:
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Sure and I can understand that--and it would have been hard for me to make a decision that could involve the deaths of the people around me.
I also understand the effects of demoralization and how that would have played into the psyche of the people in the camps.
What I do not understand though is that very few people resisted knowing full well what was going to happen to them--At close to the end of the war EVERYONE knew what was going on.
What does it matter if your resistance gets 100 other people killed WHO ARE GOING TO DIE ANYWAY. At least you have a f*****g chance.
Look I don't "blame" them for what the Nazi's did--they had nothing to do with what happened other than "letting it happen". That goes for everyone around them.
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Kikk
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 695
Location: Jacksonville, NC
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:44 Post subject:
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You said it was useless for Vekril to argue his point and I agree. He has no point other than to use half-truths, one sided views and outright lies as his facts.
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Zapper
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1512
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:45 Post subject:
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Remember the Jenin Massacre?
Hundreds of civilians killed?
Did the Palestinians not just accept that all those casualties were fighters?
On the killing. That is just wrong the soldier should be court martialed or discharged. Then again when you live in a war zone your whole mentality changes.
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Kikk
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 695
Location: Jacksonville, NC
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:46 Post subject:
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And notice that I said BEFORE the war--I am not equating what Israel is doing to the Palestinians to the Nazi's during WW II.
But see it all started with discrimination, hatred, oppression and a self righteous view of themselves as "superior" during world war II. The exact same thing that is going on today in Israel. Don't believe me? Read the Israeli laws on employment and housing from 1920-60's.
Last edited by Kikk on 07/25/03 - 14:50; edited 1 time in total
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Kaladam
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1110
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:48 Post subject:
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| Zapper wrote: | Remember the Jenin Massacre?
Hundreds of civilians killed?
Did the Palestinians not just accept that all those casualties were fighters?
On the killing. That is just wrong the soldier should be court martialed or discharged. Then again when you live in a war zone your whole mentality changes. |
The final number ended up being more around 52, and the UN was 'disappointed' that the terror groups operated around civilians and called for an end to it.
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Kaladam
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1110
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Posted: 07/25/03 - 14:50 Post subject:
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| Kikk wrote: | | And notice that I said BEFORE the war--I am not equating what Israel is doing to the Palestinians to the Nazi's during WW II. |
Palestinians are forced to wear yellow stars? Holy shit!
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