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Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 09:30 Post subject: The United States' Weapons of Mass Destruction
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Interesting article here.
| Quote: | Our Hidden WMD Program
Why Bush is spending so much on nuclear weapons.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Friday, April 23, 2004, at 3:41 PM PT
The budget is busted; American soldiers need more armor; they're running out of supplies. Yet the Department of Energy is spending an astonishing $6.5 billion on nuclear weapons this year, and President Bush is requesting $6.8 billion more for next year and a total of $30 billion over the following four years. This does not include his much-cherished missile-defense program, by the way. This is simply for the maintenance, modernization, development, and production of nuclear bombs and warheads.
Measured in "real dollars" (that is, adjusting for inflation), this year's spending on nuclear activities is equal to what Ronald Reagan spent at the height of the U.S.-Soviet standoff. It exceeds by over 50 percent the average annual sum ($4.2 billion) that the United States spent—again, in real dollars—throughout the four and a half decades of the Cold War.
There is no nuclear arms race going on now. The world no longer offers many suitable nuclear targets. President Bush is trying to persuade other nations—especially "rogue regimes"—to forgo their nuclear ambitions. Yet he is shoveling money to U.S. nuclear weapons laboratories as if the Soviet Union still existed and the Cold War still raged.
These are the findings of a virtually unnoticed report written by weapons analyst Christopher Paine, based on data from official budget documents, and released earlier this month by the Natural Resources Defense Council.
The report raises anew a question that always springs to mind after a close look at the U.S. military budget: What the hell is going on here? Specifically: Do we really need to be spending this kind of money on nuclear weapons? What role do nuclear weapons play in 21st-century military policy? How many weapons do we need, to deter what sort of attack or to hit what sorts of targets, with what level of confidence, for what strategic and tactical purposes?
These are questions that haven't been seriously addressed in this country for 30 years. It may be time for a new look.
Ten years ago, spending on nuclear activities amounted to $3.4 billion, half of today's sum. In President Clinton's last budget, it totaled $5.2 billion, still one-third less than this year's. (All figures are adjusted for inflation and expressed in 2004 dollars.) Have new threats emerged that can be handled only by a vast expansion or improvement of the U.S. nuclear arsenal? Has our nuclear stockpile deteriorated by a startling degree? There's no evidence that either is the case.
Yet Paine quotes a statement from the National Nuclear Security Administration—the quasi-independent agency of the Energy Department that's in charge of the atomic stockpile—declaring, as its goal, "to revitalize the nuclear weapons manufacturing infrastructure." Its guidance on this point is the Bush administration's Nuclear Posture Review of December 2001, which stated that U.S. strategic nuclear forces must provide "a range of options" not merely to deter but "to defeat any aggressor."
The one aspect of this reorientation that's attracted some attention is the development of a "robust nuclear earth-penetrator" (RNEP)—a warhead that can burrow deep into the earth before exploding, in order to destroy underground bunkers. The U.S. Air Force currently has some non-nuclear earth-penetrators, but they can't burrow deeply enough or explode powerfully enough to destroy some known bunkers. There's a legitimate debate over whether we would need to destroy such bunkers or whether it would be good enough to disable them—a feat that the conventional bunker-busters could accomplish. There's a broader question still over whether an American president really would, or should, be the first to fire nuclear weapons in wartime, no matter how tempting the tactical advantage.
The point here, however, is that this new nuclear weapon is fast becoming a reality.
As chronicled in a recent report by the Congressional Research Service, when Bush started the RNEP program two years ago, it was labeled as strictly a research project. Its budget was a mere $6.1 million in Fiscal Year 2003 and $7.1 million for FY 04. Now, all of a sudden, the administration has posted a five-year plan for the program amounting, from FY 2005-09, to $485 million. The FY05 budget alone earmarks $27.5 million to begin "development ground tests" on "candidate weapon designs." This isn't research; it's a real weapon in the works.
Paine's report cites other startlers that have eluded all notice outside the cognoscenti. For instance, the Energy Department is building a massive $4 billion-$6 billion proton accelerator in order to produce more tritium, the heavy hydrogen isotope that boosts the explosive yield of a nuclear weapon. (Tritium is the hydrogen that makes a hydrogen bomb.) Tritium does decay; eventually, it will have to be refurbished to ensure that, say, a 100-kiloton bomb really explodes with 100 kilotons of force. But Paine calculates that the current U.S. stockpile doesn't require any new tritium until at least 2012. If the stockpile is reduced to the level required under the terms of the most recent strategic arms treaty, none is needed until 2022.
Similar questions are raised about the Energy Department's plans to spend billions on new plutonium pits, high-energy fusion lasers, and supercomputer systems.
There is some debate within the administration over such matters, but it's a peculiar debate. For instance, some Pentagon officials favor spending $2 billion over the next five years to do a complete makeover on the W-76 warhead inside the U.S. Navy's Trident I missile—giving it an option to explode on the surface, improving its accuracy so it could blow up a blast-hardened missile silo, and so forth. The Trident I is an old missile; it's scheduled to be warehoused in the next few years. But Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has advocated "modernizing" even the "reserve stockpile" of nukes. Opposing this view, many Energy Department officials want to spend less money on these "legacy" weapons and invest it instead on a new generation of smaller, more agile nukes.
The official inside debate, in other words, is whether to build new nuclear weapons that are more usable in modern warfare or whether to do that and make the old nuclear weapons more usable, too. A broader debate—over whether to go down this twisted road generally—has not yet begun.
Fred Kaplan writes the "War Stories" column for Slate.
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http://slate.msn.com/id/2099425/
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Haroun Zehra
Sir Postalot

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1235
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 09:31 Post subject:
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Interesting article.
I give you 30 minutes for this thread to get derailed by attacks on Kerry. Good luck.
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Ikkan
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 06 Sep 2003 Posts: 3086
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 09:35 Post subject:
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| Haroun Zehra wrote: | Interesting article.
I give you 30 minutes for this thread to get derailed by attacks on Kerry. Good luck.  |
If you insist.
| Quote: | | The budget is busted; American soldiers need more armor |
Kerry voted no on giving more Flak Jackets to troops in Iraq, grats him!
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Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 09:36 Post subject:
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There was another great article in The Economist this month about the Army's new Stryker armored vehicle as well.
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khrath
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 8750
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 09:38 Post subject:
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it's simple man
we basically make it 100% futile to threaten our country with nukes, in order to disarm the rest of the world, so that we will never have to deal with any agressor again.
It's like a game of monopoly. When you own the yellows and reds.....you dont stop where you are just because everyone else doesn't have cash to build more houses......you build yourself up and slingshot past everyone, eventually causing them to go bankrupt.
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Ikkan
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 06 Sep 2003 Posts: 3086
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 09:39 Post subject:
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| Khrath wrote: | it's simple man
we basically make it 100% futile to threaten our country with nukes, in order to disarm the rest of the world, so that we will never have to deal with any agressor again.
It's like a game of monopoly. When you own the yellows and reds.....you dont stop where you are just because everyone else doesn't have cash to build more houses......you build yourself up and slingshot past everyone, eventually causing them to go bankrupt. |
You owe me $450 still for spending the night on Boardwalk
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Maldek
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 2089
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 10:18 Post subject:
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Ikkan your sig sucks and your replies are those of a shameless post count w***e
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Haroun Zehra
Sir Postalot

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1235
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 10:38 Post subject:
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Khrath, Cold War logic = skeery
Maldek, is your avatar MF Doom, the guy who performs with Madlib?
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Luturb
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 4042
Location: Livermore, California
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 10:53 Post subject:
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Part of the reason we need to spend so much money on nuclear weapons is because our current arsenal is designed for a cold war scenario that no longer exists. We don't need to vaporize the soviet union anymore, we need to be able to hit a single target accurately and minimize collateral damage, and our current nukes are not designed for that.
The other reason is politics. We are not allowed to design any new nukes by treaty. We are not allowed to build any new nukes by treaty. We are not allowed to test Nukes underground or anywhere else, so we are forced to rely on things like simulations using supercomputers that are not at all cheap, and we are forced to rely on 30 year old weapons and be confident that they work. Nuclear weapons are very complicated devices, and due to the effects that they have you need to have 99.999% confidence that they are safe and that everything on them will work if we need it to. Maintaining the level of surety, safety, and security that is required for these weapons without being able to build new weapons or do any "real" tests isn't cheap.
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 12:14 Post subject:
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f**k ICBM's, you know what we are scared of now? suitcase bombs
If we could develop the worlds best suitcase bomb that would be a true deterrent.
If anyone was even thinking of starting shit we would just find a way to drop off a suitcase to the leaders headquarters with a note that says "boom". I think that would convey the message and cost about $6.5 billion dollars less.
No one is playing the missile game anymore.
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Zab
Sir Postalot

Joined: 07 Mar 2003 Posts: 1222
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 14:21 Post subject:
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We just had an inspection called the NSI ( Nuclear Surety Inspection ) here at the base i am stationed at. The inspection makes or breaks commanders. we failed the last one and EVERY COMMANDER on the base was replaced. We passed this inspection with flying colors. Ive been out to the facility where they hold the nukes ( not underground where the nukes actually are but to the above ground atrium ) and ill tell you this. I have never seen so much security in a building and around it than i saw there.
Keeping nuclear weapons is by no means cheap. If you actually had any idea at what was going on with nukes and how they are stored/kept up and the like you would know how much of a b***h it is. I love sitting on the second largest nuclear weapon facility in the CONUS....really, i do!
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 14:34 Post subject:
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| Haroun Zehra wrote: | Khrath, Cold War logic = skeery
Maldek, is your avatar MF Doom, the guy who performs with Madlib? |
cold war logic is why you are not speaking russian or chinese atm.
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Numzan
Rookie

Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 82
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 15:08 Post subject:
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b******t......
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 08 Feb 2004 Posts: 6730
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 15:12 Post subject:
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| Banzai wrote: | f**k ICBM's, you know what we are scared of now? suitcase bombs
If we could develop the worlds best suitcase bomb that would be a true deterrent.
If anyone was even thinking of starting shit we would just find a way to drop off a suitcase to the leaders headquarters with a note that says "boom". I think that would convey the message and cost about $6.5 billion dollars less.
No one is playing the missile game anymore. |
Uh....why not just fire off a cruise missle?
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Guest
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 15:15 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: | | Haroun Zehra wrote: | Khrath, Cold War logic = skeery
Maldek, is your avatar MF Doom, the guy who performs with Madlib? |
cold war logic is why you are not speaking russian or chinese atm. |
So true.
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Yabden
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 13 Oct 2002 Posts: 2485
Location: Ohio
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 15:20 Post subject:
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the government does too much spending, they need to quit it.
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Xion
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 2117
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 15:35 Post subject:
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I think that money includes the money we pay russia to dimantle it nuclear arsenal...
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khrath
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 8750
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 16:11 Post subject:
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| Kbarr wrote: |  |
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 16:12 Post subject:
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| Confused wrote: | | Banzai wrote: | f**k ICBM's, you know what we are scared of now? suitcase bombs
If we could develop the worlds best suitcase bomb that would be a true deterrent.
If anyone was even thinking of starting shit we would just find a way to drop off a suitcase to the leaders headquarters with a note that says "boom". I think that would convey the message and cost about $6.5 billion dollars less.
No one is playing the missile game anymore. |
Uh....why not just fire off a cruise missle? |
A suitcase is cheaper.
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khrath
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 8750
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 16:14 Post subject:
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f**k yah, imitation alligator all the way
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Haroun Zehra
Sir Postalot

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1235
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 16:16 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: | | Haroun Zehra wrote: | Khrath, Cold War logic = skeery
Maldek, is your avatar MF Doom, the guy who performs with Madlib? |
cold war logic is why you are not speaking russian or chinese atm. |
I'm not gonna disagree with you on that point. While the Cold War wasn't fun for anyone, we avoided nuclear war and made it through fairly intact.
My point was that it worked then, but it's hardly necessary now because the parties in question are either rogue nations (Korea) which neither China nor Russia were/are, or terrorists with portable weapons. The Cold War logic no longer applies.
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 08 Feb 2004 Posts: 6730
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 16:16 Post subject:
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| Haroun Zehra wrote: | | Frax wrote: | | Haroun Zehra wrote: | Khrath, Cold War logic = skeery
Maldek, is your avatar MF Doom, the guy who performs with Madlib? |
cold war logic is why you are not speaking russian or chinese atm. |
I'm not gonna disagree with you on that point. While the Cold War wasn't fun for anyone, we avoided nuclear war and made it through fairly intact.
My point was that it worked then, but it's hardly necessary now because the parties in question are either rogue nations (Korea) which neither China nor Russia were/are, or terrorists with portable weapons. The Cold War logic no longer applies. |
How old were you when the cold war ended, moron?
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Guest
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 16:42 Post subject:
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| Haroun Zehra wrote: | | Frax wrote: | | Haroun Zehra wrote: | Khrath, Cold War logic = skeery
Maldek, is your avatar MF Doom, the guy who performs with Madlib? |
cold war logic is why you are not speaking russian or chinese atm. |
I'm not gonna disagree with you on that point. While the Cold War wasn't fun for anyone, we avoided nuclear war and made it through fairly intact.
My point was that it worked then, but it's hardly necessary now because the parties in question are either rogue nations (Korea) which neither China nor Russia were/are, or terrorists with portable weapons. The Cold War logic no longer applies. |
I'm sorry, when did canada become "we"? LOL, hey socialist, just because you felt the need, the urge, to spend time in the capitol of the world, New York, doesn't make you part of the club.
The US won the cold war, and it sure didn't need the leeching socialists hugging our cold border to do it.
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Nobunaga
Toomuchtimeonhands

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 932
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 16:46 Post subject:
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Too bad we don't have more like him!
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Banzai
Guest
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 16:50 Post subject:
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Regan was a decent fella.
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Nuldaan
Sir Postalot

Joined: 07 Nov 2002 Posts: 1179
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 16:54 Post subject:
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| Haroun Zehra wrote: | | Frax wrote: | | Haroun Zehra wrote: | Khrath, Cold War logic = skeery
Maldek, is your avatar MF Doom, the guy who performs with Madlib? |
cold war logic is why you are not speaking russian or chinese atm. |
I'm not gonna disagree with you on that point. While the Cold War wasn't fun for anyone, we avoided nuclear war and made it through fairly intact.
My point was that it worked then, but it's hardly necessary now because the parties in question are either rogue nations (Korea) which neither China nor Russia were/are, or terrorists with portable weapons. The Cold War logic no longer applies. |
I remember reading about this awhile ago. The logic in the spending (especially of the nuclear bunker-busters) was that our current nuclear stockpile is designed for maximum damage to a nation. The goal was to redesign our nukes to be capable of hitting smaller targets. Terrorist leaders hiding in caves comes to mind as a perfect target for a nuclear bunker buster missile. Essentially, it's the same threat we used in the Cold War but on a smaller scale. You attack us, we nuke you.
All things considered, it makes sense. We do need more accurate weapons when you consider the actions of terrorists. Now, does it justify the cost? If the weapons work, it certainly does.
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Nobunaga
Toomuchtimeonhands

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 932
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 17:03 Post subject:
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Actually, ICBM's and Nuclear Subs were among the most cost efficient anti-deterrants we utilized during the Cold war. They were proven and they worked. The exorbitant costs came from our overspending on failures such as the B1-B, The Star Wars Satellite defense, the first Bradleys, having bases all over the world and other quirky innovations that were pursued and mismanaged by the Pentagon. The Cold War mentality is not applicable today. We are a hegemonic might that should pay our soldiers more in benefits rather than pursuuing every technological miltary innovation that comes along. And we don't need to spend $10,000 on a plastic tray that acts as a urinal for a jet pilot.
Last edited by Nobunaga on 05/05/04 - 17:19; edited 1 time in total
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 17:19 Post subject:
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tritium has a ton of uses besides nuclear weapons.
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Bait Masterson
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 3842
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 17:22 Post subject:
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the logic is we have enough nuclear weapons to make the planet uninhabitable. Why develop more.
The problem with that line of thinking is, without R&D we cannot develop better weapon systems, weapons that are more effective and may do less damage to the environment while still achieving our objective. Sure we can nuke the f**k out of a country and turn it to glass, but wouldnt it be better to be able to drop one bomb and have it achieve our goals without creating a nuclear winter?
As well Derivitive discoveries also come from such research, for instance the ICBM. Without its invention we would have never been to the moon, we would not have been able to launch sattelites into orbit. The whole world directly benefits from our research into nuclear weapons.
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Haroun Zehra
Sir Postalot

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1235
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Posted: 05/05/04 - 17:22 Post subject:
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| Confused wrote: | | How old were you when the cold war ended, moron? |
Let's assume, shit-for-brains, the 1990 end date. In 1990 I was around 17. I was an incredibly well-eductated and politically conscious 17-year old, top 99th percentile all graduates in North America, going to an Ivy-League university the following year, etc., etc. I'd been reading Newsweek (a mag that just LOVED to cover the Cold War) since I was about 11, and was certainly reading a couple of daily papers along the way, etc., so I was pretty well informed.
Kbarr, your "we" argument is f*****g stupid, so I'm not even going to entertain it past this brief nod.
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