|
|
| Author |
Message |
Renork
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 23 Jun 2003
Posts: 6282
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
 |
Paco
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 12939
Location: Jacksonville, FL
|
 Posted: 10/01/04 - 14:52 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
me too! hahaha
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Fabulez
Luke Warm
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 437
Location: up in here
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 14:58 Post subject:
|
|
|
"God is dead." -- Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead." -- God
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Jakanden
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 5334
Location: Fuck if I know - I am always lost
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 15:01 Post subject: Re: The Official God FAQ
|
|
|
| Renork wrote: | http://www.400monkeys.com/God/index.html
I lollzletoffed |
Lmao that rocks
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 15:26 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
It would be neat to gain root on the host machine and edit the HTML to read: "A creative force as evidenced by creativity." Actually, no it wouldn't. Maybe a simple 'Yes' would do.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Jakanden
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 5334
Location: Fuck if I know - I am always lost
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 15:28 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Occulis wrote: | | It would be neat to gain root on the host machine and edit the HTML to read: "A creative force as evidenced by creativity." Actually, no it wouldn't. Maybe a simple 'Yes' would do. |
I like the answer currently on there better
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 15:37 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
That's because athiesm is an easy, popular belief to follow and requires absolutely no discussion of ethics.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 15:39 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Occulis wrote: | | That's because athiesm is an easy, popular belief to follow and requires absolutely no discussion of ethics. |
Ethics and religion are not related.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 15:48 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
No, not to kids and wanna-be philosphers. People who are a few weeks past the "I'm an elite, progressive thinker because I don't subscribe to any modern religions" state of mind quickly realize religion about many things, especially ethics.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Owyyn
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2900
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 15:56 Post subject:
|
|
|
Being an atheist doesn't mean you don't have ethics. Religion teaches ethics, but you don't have to follow a religion to have good ethics. 
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 16:01 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
I'm saying religion includes ethics. Nothing more.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 16:33 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
I say there is no reason for ethics without some form of belief in a power that is greater than yourself. If there is no power greater than you I see no reason whatsoever for morality or ethics.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 16:44 Post subject:
|
|
|
Ethics are necessary for a successful, intelligent species. Most people won't steal a car, or even a candy bar from a grocery store. Most people won't rape or kill others.
Set a standard, live by it, raise your children in it, die happy.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Goraz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3736
Location: Philadelphia
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 16:58 Post subject: Re: The Official God FAQ
|
|
|
| Renork wrote: | http://www.400monkeys.com/God/index.html
I lollzletoffed |
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Fabulez
Luke Warm
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 437
Location: up in here
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 16:59 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Occulis wrote: | | That's because athiesm is an easy, popular belief to follow and requires absolutely no discussion of ethics. |
Any group of two or more humans requires some discussion of ethics or else it will rapidly become one (or zero) human(s).
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 17:16 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Silvermouse wrote: | Ethics are necessary for a successful, intelligent species. Most people won't steal a car, or even a candy bar from a grocery store. Most people won't rape or kill others.
Set a standard, live by it, raise your children in it, die happy. |
Your views are painfully full of holes. If they are not out of respect for a higher power they are out of fear of other equals.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 17:25 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Mugaaz wrote: | | Silvermouse wrote: | Ethics are necessary for a successful, intelligent species. Most people won't steal a car, or even a candy bar from a grocery store. Most people won't rape or kill others.
Set a standard, live by it, raise your children in it, die happy. |
Your views are painfully full of holes. If they are not out of respect for a higher power they are out of fear of other equals. |
So to have a successful, intelligent species you don't need ethics?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Krumble
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 771
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 17:30 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Occulis wrote: | | That's because athiesm is an easy, popular belief to follow and requires absolutely no discussion of ethics. |
That is so, so wrong. If anything, subscribing to atheism requires more discussion of ethics than embracing a religion.
Most fervent Christians would readily agree with the Divine Command Theory / Euthyphro argument, ending all further discussion of ethics right there. If you believe the DCT is correct, all you have to do is correctly interpret the Bible (insert religious work) for all of the answers.
Plato (author of Euthyphro) believed the divine command theory was false, by the way. Some interesting, or not interesting, reading can be found by going to google and typing any of the following: euthyphro, divine command theory, reductio argument.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Krumble
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 771
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 17:36 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Silvermouse wrote: | | Mugaaz wrote: | | Silvermouse wrote: | Ethics are necessary for a successful, intelligent species. Most people won't steal a car, or even a candy bar from a grocery store. Most people won't rape or kill others.
Set a standard, live by it, raise your children in it, die happy. |
Your views are painfully full of holes. If they are not out of respect for a higher power they are out of fear of other equals. |
So to have a successful, intelligent species you don't need ethics? |
Silvermouse, there's no use even bothering to argue. The armchair scientist's appeal to his own logic isn't worth the time it took me to type this sentence out.
This is a gem:
"If they are not out of respect for a higher power they are out of fear of other equals."
It takes some creative leeway to call that a coherent thought. Someone needs to set down the bowl and report to the nearest classroom.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 18:35 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Krumble wrote: | | Occulis wrote: | | That's because athiesm is an easy, popular belief to follow and requires absolutely no discussion of ethics. |
That is so, so wrong. If anything, subscribing to atheism requires more discussion of ethics than embracing a religion.
Most fervent Christians would readily agree with the Divine Command Theory / Euthyphro argument, ending all further discussion of ethics right there. If you believe the DCT is correct, all you have to do is correctly interpret the Bible (insert religious work) for all of the answers.
Plato (author of Euthyphro) believed the divine command theory was false, by the way. Some interesting, or not interesting, reading can be found by going to google and typing any of the following: euthyphro, divine command theory, reductio argument. |
Plato believed the Divine Command Theory was false as far as it concerned greek religions use of multiple gods who's will opposed each other. If a belief isn't internally consistent is obviously the easiest way to spot it's falsehood. Even an athiest can't refute that *IF* there was a god and he was the *supreme* creator of all things, morality and ethics would be nothing more than mankind's search to understand his will.
And seriously, if any athiest gives me 1 good answer as to a reason for a person to be moral or have ethics without belief in a higher power or the fear of reprisal I'll become one myself.
The only reason for ethics and morality in an athiest world would be due to the fear of society's power to dominae the individual and punish him.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Xarpolis
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2884
Location: Philly, PA
|
|
Posted: 10/01/04 - 21:44 Post subject:
|
|
|
Just so I'm not missing anything... it had only a single question, right?
Like, that's it?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
|
|
Posted: 10/02/04 - 03:11 Post subject:
|
|
|
I'm 100% agnostic. I'm not going to say "har! without a doubt, there is no God". That's like saying, "there are no intelligent lifeforms in space". We don't have enough information to make an accurate judgment.
On the flip side, am I supposed to believe that a 2000 year-old man is waiting for us in some invisible paradise?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
ATM Banana
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 8575
|
|
Posted: 10/02/04 - 03:30 Post subject:
|
|
|
actually no, the bible makes is clear jesus left his physical self during the accention.
but if that were the case then yes.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
|
|
Posted: 10/02/04 - 09:20 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Silvermouse wrote: | I'm 100% agnostic. I'm not going to say "har! without a doubt, there is no God". That's like saying, "there are no intelligent lifeforms in space". We don't have enough information to make an accurate judgment.
On the flip side, am I supposed to believe that a 2000 year-old man is waiting for us in some invisible paradise? |
Discussing which religion, if any are correct, and to what degree is only an issueif you believe there is a god.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Krumble
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 771
|
|
Posted: 10/02/04 - 15:24 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Mugaaz wrote: | | Plato believed the Divine Command Theory was false as far as it concerned greek religions use of multiple gods who's will opposed each other. If a belief isn't internally consistent is obviously the easiest way to spot it's falsehood. Even an athiest can't refute that *IF* there was a god and he was the *supreme* creator of all things, morality and ethics would be nothing more than mankind's search to understand his will. |
You googled for that explanation of the divine command theory, didn't you? If a teacher told you that, go and ask for a refund. Try reading the damn paper, it's only 10-12 pages long. (Hint: Socrates doesn't attack Euthyphro's argument based on the fact that multiple gods oppose each other. Quite the opposite, Socrates brings it his attention and says that he will ignore that point.)
| Mugaaz wrote: | And seriously, if any athiest gives me 1 good answer as to a reason for a person to be moral or have ethics without belief in a higher power or the fear of reprisal I'll become one myself.
The only reason for ethics and morality in an athiest world would be due to the fear of society's power to dominae the individual and punish him. |
Wow, that's just dumb. The only reason I don't go on a wanton killing spree is because I'm afraid of reprisal? There are 100 theories on morality and ethics by real philosophers that would trump this argument of yours, google for some of them.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
|
|
Posted: 10/02/04 - 15:32 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
Then post 1
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
|
|
Posted: 10/02/04 - 15:34 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Mugaaz wrote: |
And seriously, if any athiest gives me 1 good answer as to a reason for a person to be moral or have ethics without belief in a higher power or the fear of reprisal I'll become one myself.
The only reason for ethics and morality in an athiest world would be due to the fear of society's power to dominae the individual and punish him. |
So what you're saying is that if there were no limits, you would go on a killing spree?
This may sound strange, but most people don't have a chaotic, bloodthirsty streak in them that they are craving to release.
If suddenly it were found out that there was no higher power and the government decided to quit punishing criminals, we wouldn't all become animals, wantonly f*****g in the streets and murdering each other. Many people would, but most of us, in the interest of being "good" people would band together and rebuild.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Gethy
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 5595
Location: Tallahassee, FL
|
|
Posted: 10/02/04 - 15:35 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Mugaaz wrote: | | Then post 1 |
Any number of the aforementioned names in this thread?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Ashley
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Amfek.org
|
|
Posted: 10/02/04 - 15:52 Post subject:
|
|
|
believe it or not, a lot of people dont have to be "told" (through the bible or religion) to follow morals and ethics. They do it out of their own innate sense of morality. Also, couldnt you say that religious people have morals out of fear of reprisal? Especially with catholics who believe that if you dont follow their code of ethics you'll go to hell, rather than a societal punishment, it would be a religious punishment.
Have you ever found a large sum of cash on the ground and seen or known who dropped it? You dont have to be religious to have a dilemma here. Reason can determine what you do even moreso than faith. Personally, if i saw bill gates drop $1,000 with no consequence or anyone seeing me.. i would keep it. On the other hand, if i saw a woman walking into good will drop $100 with 3 kids, i would return it. This is just general morality and ethics... it has NOTHING to do with any higher power or a punishment by society.
So to answer your question.. reason can be used to determine morals and ethics rather than religion. This is why most often it is psycotics who commit atrocities rather than atheists.
On the other hand, could you give me a reason as to why people of strong faith (this goes for all religions.. but for consistency answer from your own religion) often have unbelievably strong hate, and then use religion to JUSTIFY hate? Also, why is it that often the kids brought up with the most religion around them tend to have unprotected **** when they're 13? Basically, what im asking- is why do i very often feel, as an athiest, that my morals and ethics are stronger than many people who are devoutly religious?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
|
|
Posted: 10/02/04 - 16:07 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Silvermouse wrote: | | Mugaaz wrote: |
And seriously, if any athiest gives me 1 good answer as to a reason for a person to be moral or have ethics without belief in a higher power or the fear of reprisal I'll become one myself.
The only reason for ethics and morality in an athiest world would be due to the fear of society's power to dominae the individual and punish him. |
So what you're saying is that if there were no limits, you would go on a killing spree?
This may sound strange, but most people don't have a chaotic, bloodthirsty streak in them that they are craving to release.
If suddenly it were found out that there was no higher power and the government decided to quit punishing criminals, we wouldn't all become animals, wantonly f*****g in the streets and murdering each other. Many people would, but most of us, in the interest of being "good" people would band together and rebuild. |
If one of your desires is company then no you probably wouldn't, if one of your desires was to not kill people, then no you probably wouldn't. But there would be no moral or ethical reason o not do it if you felt like it.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
