Ten Commandments Alabama b******t (NWS P6) :: Ultimate MMORPG Gaming Community & Trading Zone

Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/20/03 - 19:11 Post subject: Ten Commandments Alabama b******t (NWS P6)

Roy Moore cracks me up. According to him, the federal government has no jurisdiction to tell him to remove a monument containing the Ten Commandments from the Justice Building there (or whatever building, forget exactly which one - a public one). According to him, our nation is built upon the acknowledgement of a God. What utter b******t. The best shot was of some dopes hanging out in front of the building protesting with Confederate flags all over. Makes you think he wants to fight another Civil War to decide the matter. Every federal court has overturned his appeal so far, now he's taking it to the Supreme Court, although he is supposed to remove it by August 20. This guy should be removed from office, what a disgrace to the judicial system.

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Xion
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2117
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posted: 08/20/03 - 19:14 Post subject:

He is correct in that the basis for our judicial system is largely based on the ten commandments....however, it is in a way an endorsement of religion by the government...it just depends on how you look at it.

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Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/20/03 - 19:16 Post subject:

IN A WAY an endorsement? That has to be the biggest understatement I've ever heard of =D Separation of church and state is very clear. He was told he can move it to his private offices, he refused. It is not permissable to display such a blatantly religious object in a public government building. Absolutely not.

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 19:18 Post subject:

So in your opinion, what does separation of church and state mean? Just curious...

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Xion
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2117
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posted: 08/20/03 - 19:23 Post subject:

The separation of church and state ruling is hypocritical in that it wasn't always separated...the history of our country is largely religious. I believe his monument pays tribute to the basis of our judicial system, not the relgion itself, and that's why I think it's ok. The separation of church and state ruling can't change history, Rennol, but if you want to forget history, be my guest. EDIT: spelling

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Okami
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2242
Location: The new board

Posted: 08/20/03 - 19:44 Post subject:

he should have it declared a national landmark. Problem solved.

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r00typooh
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 5178
Location: Miami, FL

Posted: 08/20/03 - 20:38 Post subject:

i agree with Xion here on why it should be left. I hope he wins out and they allow him to leave it be. On the flip side, in the meantime, he needs to listen to the federal courts. What kinda role model is he being by not listening to a judgement?

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Malik
Luke Warm

Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 205

Posted: 08/20/03 - 20:38 Post subject:

Quote:

IN A WAY an endorsement? That has to be the biggest understatement I've ever heard of =D

Ummmm no. If you want the biggest endorsement, pick up any piece of of US currency, and take a read.

ppl make a big fuss about a silly monument that a very small fraction of the population will ever see because it's religious.. Yet I bet those same people wouldn't turn their nose up at a $100 bill if i offered it to them Wink

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Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/20/03 - 20:44 Post subject:

You guys are insane. The founders of this country specifically mentioned "Creator" in the Declaration of Independence, and God as a Christian god is not referenced in any way in that piece nor the Constitution. This is a SECULAR country. Get that through your heads.

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 20:52 Post subject:

Listen you little wanker...our founding fathers came from religious oppression from the Church of England. They wanted to make sure it didn't happen "over here". They said that the government couldn't exist without religion and religion couldn't exist without the government. There needs to be a common ground...and yes, our "morals" are based on the ten commandments...not the fekking Quran. Oh for the love of God...so we put up monuments in honor of our morals...and you want to waste time and money to take them down? It's liberals like you that are constantly complaining that our morality has gone to the s*****r...yet you want to hide the only moral template from everyone's sight. Yeah, fekking good idea...now go back to Hell where you came from.

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 20:55 Post subject:

The following is an ACTUAL excerpt from Congressional Records with regards to the infiltration of our society by Communists...enjoy it.

Quote:

Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
January 10, 1963

Current Communist Goals

EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Thursday, January 10, 1963

Mr. HERLONG. Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Patricia Nordman of De Land, Fla., is an ardent and articulate opponent of communism, and until recently published the De Land Courier, which she dedicated to the purpose of alerting the public to the dangers of communism in America.

At Mrs. Nordman's request, I include in the RECORD, under unanimous consent, the following "Current Communist Goals," which she identifies as an excerpt from "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen:

[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]

CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.

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Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:02 Post subject:

Ah, yes. Everyone that isn't a bible thumping Chrstian is automatically an Islamic Jihad member or a communist insurrectionist. Idiot.

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:07 Post subject:

Oh so wrong Rennol...tolerance of any religious teaching is the only answer. However, the country was founded on Christian teachings, therefore we should honor it above all others. If you were in the Middle East, you think they would tolerate a Mormon or Taoist? Think they would allow you to open a church or temple on their lands? No...but we allow it here and tolerate other religions, this is the American way. But when you start taking away a fundamental part of our history and claiming it's infringing upon your rights...what does that say about the country as a whole. It says we are lost as a society, we have no identity as a nation. Big f*****g deal, we have a monument of the ten commandments.

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Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:15 Post subject:

Docter wrote:

However, the country was founded on Christian teachings, therefore we should honor it above all others.

lol, I love how you people pull this shit out of your ass. This country was founded on the principle of reason and secular notions. Laws which are derived from these principles resemble those set forth by Christ and the Bible, yet they are not the same thing. Hilarious.

Docter wrote:

If you were in the Middle East, you think they would tolerate a Mormon or Taoist?

This isn't the Middle East, that is why it is a problem to be displaying this kind of thing. You want to see America turn into the Middle East..except Christian!

Docter wrote:

No...but we allow it here and tolerate other religions, this is the American way.

ROFL, you act like this is something we should be giving away medals for! You point out that one of the key reasons the colonies were established was to escape religious persecution and then you come up with b******t like this, with euphemisms like "This is the American Way" to cover up your prejudice.

Docter wrote:

But when you start taking away a fundamental part of our history and claiming it's infringing upon your rights...what does that say about the country as a whole. It says we are lost as a society, we have no identity as a nation.

Quite to the contrary Docter, it is the regression of history into the morass of religious fervor and dogma that is what is concerning in this instance. While the principles of Christianity may indeed have formed the foundation for the principles of this nation, they are in no way intertwined and one and the same. They are two entities. It is folly to think otherwise. Religion is set aside, it has no place in government. Just as that monument has no place in a public government building.

He should move it to his personal office, which he has been told is within his rights. That is the key thing.

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:18 Post subject:

Yeah, you just keep helping the liberals, socialists, and communists...don't forget your cheerleading uniform, bet it's got a nice "red star" on the back.

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Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:22 Post subject:

ROFL again with the Communist threats. Amazing what you conservatives will say when you have your back against the wall because you're breaking the law!

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:24 Post subject:

Breaking what law??? Where is the law??? The monument simply pays homage to the founding principles and ideas behind the judicial system and morality.

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:26 Post subject:

Next you'll want "In God We Trust" taken off all the treasury notes...like a good communist comrade. Da?

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Zapper
RealPoor Sensei

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1512
Location: Connecticut

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:34 Post subject:

You know what we should let him put up the 10 commandments up. They should also post it in schools, post offices, town halls and every governemnt building because you know the 10 commandments are vital to our society. I think your government should spend a ton of money putting them everywhere. And you people that fight for them so much. How many times have you broken the 10 commandments? Never? b****t. If you so value them why don't you follow them and lead by example instead of forcing your b****t views on the rest of us. This country was founded on Christian teachings and we should honor those above all others? Let's see what did the people that came over on the Mayflower believe in? Should we not honor that more? Or we could go back even further to the Native Americans. They were here first. You know just because you believe strongly in something dosen't mean you are right. And it does not mean it is right for everyone else. And you have no right to impose that view or thought on anyone else. That is more communist and unamerican. Maybe you should put the red star on your back, comarade.

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:38 Post subject:

Oh I'm sorry, didn't know the Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists were amoung some of the founding fathers. My bad man, really!

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:39 Post subject:

You want to eliminate chaplains in the armed forces while you are at it??? Just curious...

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Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:40 Post subject:

Quote:

The 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, as interpreted by the courts, guarantees that:

-individuals will have freedom of religious expression;
-the government and its agencies will not recognize one religious faith as more valid than any other faith;
-the government and its agencies will not promote religion above secularism or vice versa.

These principles are continuously in a state of creative tension. Many Americans feel that America was founded by Christians and remains a Christian nation, since about 87% of its population regard themselves as Christians. They would like to see their religion represented in city and state crests, mottos, sayings, etc. Many individuals, both Christian and non-Christian are opposed to religious sayings and symbols appearing in any official capacity in their city, state and federal governments. They feel that a wall of separation must be maintained between religion and the government and its agencies; they regard this factor as outweighing any personal religious considerations.

The Supreme Court has continually upheld this:

Quote:

"In general, the courts have allowed either all religions or none to be practiced on public property. Once Christmas, Hanukkah or other religious holiday displays are allowed in city halls and town squares, all religions must be afforded similar access." 1

Decisions by the U.S. Supreme court: The court has repeatedly ruled that a religious symbol, such as the Ten Commandments, cross, menorah, nativity scene, pentacle, etc. cannot be displayed by itself on public property. To do so would be to violate the principle of separation of church and state. However, it may appear in a display as one of many religious/cultural symbols. Hopefully, this simple principle will eventually be understood by all, so future court battles will be unnecessary. Some recent rulings have been: 1984 - Pawtuckett, RI: (Lynch v. Donnelly) The court ruled that the city did not violate the separation of church and state when it included a nativity scene among a number of other decorations (plastic reindeer, candy canes, a wishing well, a Jewish menorah) displayed in a public park.
1989: Pittsburg PA: (Allegheny County v. ACLU Greater Pittsburgh Chapter) The court prohibited the display of a nativity scene which stood alone inside a county courthouse.
1998- Syracuse NY: The court allowed the city to retain its nativity scene in a public park along with a number of other decorations - a menorah and non-religious symbols. 2

"So, for governments and religious groups wishing to erect sectarian displays on public property during the holiday, the guidelines require 'secularizing' any sacred objects. Baby Jesus or other religious icons need help from Santa if they are to be kept in the public square." 3
Decisions by Federal appeals courts: Grand Rapids MI: Calder Plaza, a municipally owned facility in Grand Rapids MI, has displayed a Jewish symbol, a menorah, every year from 1984 to the present time. This practice was challenged in court as an unconstitutional state endorsement of religion. The Federal appeals court ruled that the menorah does not violate the 1st Amendment because the plaza is a public forum that provides equal access to all groups. Thus, all groups that celebrate a seasonal festival near the winter solstice (Baha'i World Faith, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Native Americans, Judaism, Sikhism, Wicca, other Neopagan religions etc.) are free to display their religious symbols.
Republic MO: Marilyn Schexsnayder won a public competition to design a new city seal in 1990. She included an ichthus - a fish symbol - believing that it was a generally accepted icon that represented all religions. It is not. It was originally a Pagan fertility symbol. Later, it widely used as a type of password among Christians in the Roman Empire. The early Christians noted that ichthus (Greek for "fish") is a Greek acronym for "Jesus Christ, Son of God." It is still commonly utilized by Christians. Jean Webb, a Wiccan, wrote an opinion piece in the local newspaper in which she opposed the symbol; she felt that the city was implying that her Neopagan religion was not welcome. She received hate mail and harassing phone calls. Her children were ostracized. The Republic Board of Aldermen refused to remove the symbol voluntarily. With the help of the ACLU, she sued the city in 1998-JUL, even though she had previously moved out of the area to avoid the harassment. The city's lawyers argued that the religious nature of the ichthus is in dispute. On 1999-JUL-9, U.S. District Judge Russell Clark decided in favor of Jean Webb. In his ruling, he wrote: "Webb brings overwhelming evidence before the Court to show that only one conclusion is possible: when viewing the fish on Republic’s flag, a reasonable observer would conclude that it is a Christian religious symbol...Almost all other courts examining the inclusion of a religious symbol within a city seal have found them in contravention of the principles of separation of church and state...While the citizens of Republic may have intended that its seal send only a message of moral values or promote ‘a universal symbol of religion,’ an applaudable motive cannot save the city seal from a violation of the Establishment Clause...While the purpose of placing the fish symbol on the city seal may not have been to endorse Christianity, the effect of the seal is to do so...The portrayal of the fish impermissibly excludes other religious beliefs or nonbeliefs and – intended or not – depicts Christianity as the religion recognized and endorsed by the residents of Republic. The Republic city seal pervasively invades the daily lives of non-Christians and sends a message that they are outsiders. The Constitution forbids such a result. The Supreme Court has unambiguously concluded that . . . the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all."
Jean Webb did not ask for monetary damages and was granted none. A citizens' committee has raised thousands of dollars to fund an appeal. On 1999-JUL-19, the city voted to remove the Christian fish symbol from its seal. 4 The mayor had to break a 4-4 tie. Although an appeal was supported by the vast majority of the approximately 200 people who attended the council meeting, the city leaders were concerned about having to pay the ACLU legal costs if they lost the appeal.

Steve Fitschen is president of the National Legal Foundation of Virginia Beach. They supported the city in its court case. He pointed out that an appeal might be winnable since the original plaintiff was no longer living in the city, and thus did not have legal standing. (She had been driven from the city by continual harassment). Ray Bennett, a deacon at First Baptist Church of Republic saw at least one positive outcome from the court case: countless Americans now know what the fish symbol stands for.

Conflict resolved outside the court system: Grand Haven MI: The city council had raised a Christian cross ever since 1964, during the playing of "God Bless America" at the end of the city-sponsored Musical Fountain show on each 4th of July. In 1997, a visitor from Chicago complained; in 1998, a Grand Haven family protested. City Manager Ryan Cotton asked the city's Musical Fountain committee to stop raising the cross on future July 4 shows. The committee referred the issue back to city council and asked for a recommendation. City attorney, Scott Smith, indicated that the raising of the cross appeared to be unconstitutional. One option would be to raise a display which included multiple religious symbols, each given equal prominence. This might include almost 30 symbols and was seen as impractical.
The city received hundreds of letters. Reactions were divided:

Some city officials said that the raising of a cross excludes non-Christians from participating fully in the July 4 celebration.
Mayor Gail Ringelberg said that "Everyone is entitled to raise symbols on their personal, private property. But this is city property and a city-sponsored event."
Councilman Edward Lystra said: "This is something a lot more fundamental about our community. It's about dignity and respect for everyone in this community and the people who come into this community...Several sincere Christians are deeply offended by the cross on the Fourth of July. They think it doesn't belong there."
Resident Leonard D'Ambrosio commented: "We're afraid of offending a few people upset by the cross but we're not afraid of offending almighty God. Who's more important?"
Resident Robert Van Hoef said: "The cross says that we are a community established on Judeo-Christian values, which really are quite simple. Those values require residents to have a measure of self-discipline and a measure of respect for others. These same values are implicit in the Constitution. The cross doesn't ask people to become Christian. It simply declares where this community stands and it shows what has been important for this community."

The cross will no longer be raised at the end of the show. 5

Somerset MA: The town had displayed crèches for nearly six decades on public property in front of the Town Hall. A menorah, representing the Jewish faith, and a giant Santa Claus, locally known as "Santazilla, were displayed at the Police/Fire headquarters. In 1997, Gil Amancio, state director of American Atheists, challenged this policy in court as a violation of church and state. The town responded by attempting to diversify the Christian display with the addition of Santazilla and the menorah. Amancio, the American Civil Liberties Union and the town settled out of court. The agreement called for the nativity display to be augmented with a "Seasons Greetings" signs, and secular holiday symbols, including plastic reindeer, lights, a Christmas tree and Santazilla. Some local religious leaders were not happy; they wanted the nativity scene to be shown by itself. A letter from a religious group commented that "In our region, there are a variety of groups, witches, Devil Worshippers and representatives of many other religious beliefs. We fear that the crèche and the menorah would be compromised even more should other groups seek to have their symbols included." 17 Their worst nightmares seems to be coming true. Amancio is preparing a sign that will read "Happy Winter Solstice from American Atheists." He plans to bill the city for costs. Pictures of the display as of early 1999-DEC are at: http://www.americanatheist.org/supplement/

Some other conflicts between states and religion:

Quote:

2000-APR: Ohio: The state accepted the suggestion of a Cincinnati boy in 1959 that the state adopt a portion of a Christian gospel (Matthew 19:26) as its state motto. The quotation records Jesus' answer to a question about salvation: "With God All Things Are Possible." A Presbyterian minister, Reverend Matthew Peterson, launched a lawsuit with the help of the American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio Foundation in 1997. They lost the case in 1998-SEP, but won on appeal.

According to AANEWS, "A three judge panel of the U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled 2-1 that the 41-year-old slogan violated the separation of church and state, and was a government endorsement of the Christian religion." Judge Avern Cohn wrote in the majority opinion: "In the context in which the words of the motto are found -- as the words of Jesus speaking of salvation -- to a reasonable observer, they must be seen as advancing, or at a minimum, showing a particular affinity for Christianity...Simply put, they are an endorsement of the Christian religion by the State of Ohio. No other interpretation in the context of their presence in the New Testament is possible. No amount of semantic legerdemain can hide the fact that the official motto of the State of Ohio repeats word-for-word, Jesus' answer to his disciples' questions about the ability to enter heaven, and thereby achieve salvation..." It is almost certain that the state will ask for a review of the decision by the full Court of Appeals.

Christine Link, Executive Director of the Ohio ACLU, commented: "We are delighted with the ruling, which once again affirms the bedrock principal that the state cannot and should not choose between competing religious doctrines."

Raymond Vasvari, Legal Director for ACLU of Ohio stated: "Remarkably, advocates of the state motto attempted to drain the passage of its theological significance in their effort to avoid the First Amendment implications of its meaning. It is just another example of how state sponsorship ultimately does no favors to religion."

According to an ACLU statement: "The opinion considers the state motto at great length, and concludes that it cannot be considered a neutral statement of deism, like the familiar "In God We Trust" because it cannot properly be understood other than in its biblical context. In that light, the Court held, the motto is far from neutral: rather, it is an expression of a particularly Christian approach to salvation, divine intervention in human affairs, and the ability of individuals to affect their own ultimate destiny." 6
2000-APR: Other state mottos: Monty Gaither, Arizona State Director for American Atheists and Susan Sackett, president of The Humanist Society of Greater Phoenix have called for their state to replace the present motto: "Ditat Deus" (God Enriches.) Other states with religious mottos are: South Dakota's: "Under God, The People Rule," and Florida's: "In God We Trust."
2000-MAY: Kansas: Treasurer Rita Cline of Shawnee County, KS, hung a 11 x 14 inch poster in her office at the courthouse. It contains the motto "In God We Trust." Mary Lou Schmidt of Topeka asked that it be removed. Ms. Cline replied in a letter, saying: "I understood you to say you are a pagan, do not believe in God, and refuse to recognize or honor the American flag and our national motto, all while claiming to be an American citizen. Your statements surprised me and caused me to question your patriotism and wonder just how much of an American you really are." [Author's note: Ms. Schmidt is apparently an Neopagan, and believes in the existence of a God and Goddess -- but not the Christian God.]

Kurtenbach of the American Civil Liberties Union commented on Cline's letter: "I was outraged by it. She has no business as a public official passing judgment on others' religious beliefs...I hope Miss Cline uses good judgment, and that would be to remove the sign...Act like a public official and not a religious crusader."

One of my favorite passages is this one: "Remarkably, advocates of the state motto attempted to drain the passage of its theological significance in their effort to avoid the First Amendment implications of its meaning. It is just another example of how state sponsorship ultimately does no favors to religion."

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:46 Post subject:

So, what would be your ultimate goal Rennol???

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Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:48 Post subject:

ROFL Docter you really are a stupid f*****g idiot. You really have saddened me, I thought you weren't such a moron.

Chaplains in the military are not related to the GOVERNMENT and PUBLIC OFFICIALS in any way. God way to draw a f*****g illogical analogy right there. Idiot.

Docter wrote:

Oh I'm sorry, didn't know the Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists were amoung some of the founding fathers. My bad man, really!

Their intentions were so that it wouldn't matter if they were. The laws would remain the same, the concepts unchanged. They are not religiously based in any way. You do them a disservice.

To all of you who brand people as "Commies" - lol. You are hilarious. You act like Christ himself founded this country.

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Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/20/03 - 21:51 Post subject:

My goal? For Roy Moore to do what the f***g SUPREME COURT is telling him to do, and move the f***g monument to his private office. LOL. You still don't get it. The placement of that monument there clearly sets up a presumption of preferrence to one particular religion. Which has explicitly been interpreted by the Supreme Court to be unconstitutional. What is YOUR goal, Docter? To start another Crusade? To wipe the heathen from the Earth? To start another Civil War perhaps? Hmm?? Well let's hear it. You're long on accusing others of being a commie but you can't defend the fact that what you are saying is something that should be acceptable has been decreed to be exactly the opposite by the highest court in the nation. Traitor.

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Docter
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Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 22:02 Post subject:

Rennol wrote:

ROFL Docter you really are a stupid f*****g idiot. You really have saddened me, I thought you weren't such a moron.

Chaplains in the military are not related to the GOVERNMENT and PUBLIC OFFICIALS in any way. God way to draw a f*****g illogical analogy right there. Idiot.

Yet the ACLU wants to remove chaplains from the armed forces...crying for a separation of church and state.

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 22:05 Post subject:

I'm sorry, but how does the monument push a certain religion??? It's a tribute to the ten commandments which is the basis of our judicial laws and morality. I'm agnostic, I don't like organized religion...but I fail to see how this monument is endangering your sense of well being. What I do see...is the whittling away of the structure of our society as a whole...by liberals such as yourself. Like I said...the next targets are chaplains in the military and "In God We Trust" on our treasury notes.

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Mogling
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 29 Dec 2002
Posts: 2451

Posted: 08/20/03 - 22:06 Post subject:

Doc, you keep mentioning Taoists, Taoism isent a religion.... also... The Ten Comandments wasent that bad a movie so why do they wanna take down a monument to it?

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Rennol
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/20/03 - 22:10 Post subject:

shrug, I'm not an ACLU fanboi, they are an organization that gets a little too zealous at times - really hilarious Onion article on that from way back, along the lines of "ACLU fights for right of Nazi organization to bomb ACLU headquarters" or something. Chaplains in the military are a different matter than public monuments endorsing a particular religion. If they were to allow any religious organization to place a monument in the building then I'm pretty sure that the Court would rule in favor of that - it has been shown that as long as all religions and groups are equally attended to it is constitutional.

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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420

Posted: 08/20/03 - 22:12 Post subject:

Maybe this will clarify my position...so if we want to put monuments up on government property to honor or pay homage to the basis of our judicial system...let it stay.

Quote:

This is the key point right here. Our rights, according to the authors of the Declaration and the Constitution, are guaranteed by, in a sense, an objective third party... God. If that objective third party does not exist, then neither do any of the guarantees of the Constitution, rather, its all just a bunch of ink and paper.

Think about the fact that the Declaration was a VERY radical document. You had a bunch of colonial yahoos who wrote a note to the most powerful man in the world, the King of England, to tell him that the beliefs of the entire western world at the time were wrong. So, instead of God appointing kings whose bloodline determined succession to rule over common people, God created everyone to be equal to each other.

Here is what the Declaration says:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Here is what King George read when he received a copy of the Declaration:

"Dear King,

Not only are we your equal, God made us all equal and guaranteed us the right to determine our own destiny.

Sincerely,

A Bunch of Peasants

PS - Nyah nyah!"

Now you know why the King's response to the Declaration was 40,000 troops and a huge fleet of ships.

David Flanagan
www.viewpointjournal.com

Last edited by Docter on 08/20/03 - 22:16; edited 1 time in total

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