RealPoor brainstorming: Puzzle automation :: Ultimate MMORPG Gaming Community & Trading Zone

Occulis
RealPoor Jedi

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central

Posted: 09/22/04 - 10:16 Post subject: RealPoor brainstorming: Puzzle automation

I'd like to automate generation of puzzles (aka quests) in an online game. Given what you all know about online games, I'd be grateful if anyone could add some ideas. This is brainstorming. There's no need to flame each other if their ideas "won't work," because it's all hypothethical anyway. I'll start off with a simple example a quest "server" could store dynamically in EQ: final quest is described in a tree-format. complexity of quest: # of layers to tree, # of nodes per layer (For instance: Thurg. shawls get complex rating of 100, metal bits 'quest' gets complex rating of 1) possible actions at each node: kill, explore, drop item, cast spell at location, cast spell on NPC, give item to npc, cast spell on world object (corpse, portal, whatever), perform tradeskill combine. each action would have a whole subtree of constraints and details. for instance, 'cast spell on PC' action might have the requirements: "zone = befallen, PC level <= 12, spell type = beneficial", or "zone = qvic, PC level >= 70, spell type = detrimental". The first example would succeed when you healed, buffed, bind wounded, ported, etc., a noob from befallen. The second example would only be fulfilled if you dueled someone in qvic. If any of you guys have done lexical analysis, or even simple grammar parsing, you'd know it is fairly easy to craft a complex "sentence" out of really simple "words." In this approach, the tree of the quest forms a sentence. The higher level parser checks the sentence out for sanity and continuity. You don't want a quest requiring PoTime and East Commons asps for a level 30. Rewards needn't necessarily be entirely new items. It is absolutely trivial to determine what an "upgrade" is, and provide a selection for the user: "Grats Singgssstuunez, would you like (link to new lute) or (link to new f***g boots)?" Anway, that's my sloppy idea. I know it could be done, since it's just data, after all. I'd like to see other people add ideas to this: expand on the possible actions, possible rewards, constraints, etc.

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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576

Posted: 09/22/04 - 11:36 Post subject:

Not to ruin or cockblock you, but I don't see the point of automatic quest generation. I think we can all agree that even a shabby non-automated one is better than the best auto-generation. I think the only real good use and point of auto-generation is to provide a non-repetitive (or at least fairly so) way of generating content for people who have used up all the "hand-made" kind. If that's the case, the quality really isn't very important at all. In a game I'm playing, if a quest is computer made, getting 100 pieces of blood to recreate an ancient vampire. or getting orc teeth for the militia really accomplish the same thing - letting me level without doing the EXACT same thing again. Don't you agree? I think if you want to do what the I believe your intention was. Is to figure out some system where there is some sort of cumulative unlockables. FOr example LDoN you earned points to buy loot that eventually were fairly good. Maybe you could get a key for a super hard area, etc. The type of unlockable content or features is infinitely more important than the automatic quest generation system.

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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central

Posted: 09/22/04 - 11:54 Post subject:

Problem one with MMO quests: Solved for one means solved for all. A quest which doesn't exist after you're done with it is a quest you have to solve and you, only you, can complete. It takes a little more brainwork. Maybe I did a poor job and didn't provide enough examples. Your quote about "collecting 100 x or 100 y" is pretty off the mark. If that were the extent of a random quest (get rand(100) item(rand(itemcount))) then you might as well just stick with human-created ones. I am asking people to brainstorm ideas for variance in a dynamic world, coupling in-game story blobs with in-game actions. I realize creativity, rather than criticism, is a difficult task for you but please give it a shot.

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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576

Posted: 09/22/04 - 12:28 Post subject:

Occulis wrote:

Problem one with MMO quests: Solved for one means solved for all. A quest which doesn't exist after you're done with it is a quest you have to solve and you, only you, can complete. It takes a little more brainwork.

Maybe I did a poor job and didn't provide enough examples. Your quote about "collecting 100 x or 100 y" is pretty off the mark. If that were the extent of a random quest (get rand(100) item(rand(itemcount))) then you might as well just stick with human-created ones.

I am asking people to brainstorm ideas for variance in a dynamic world, coupling in-game story blobs with in-game actions. I realize creativity, rather than criticism, is a difficult task for you but please give it a shot.

Dude, go f**k yourself. I don't know how I wronged you, and I sincerely don't give a shit. Just stop with every single thread you lashing out with some personal attack or quip about me, I don't care about you at all, deal with it.

And to get back on topic, I could explain at length, but I think there is an easier way. Do you ever think all the top 40 pop songs will ever at some point in time be computer generated? I don't think so. Some things computers can't do. I believe the way you're trying to accomplish what you want is not the way.

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Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi

Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015

Posted: 09/22/04 - 12:37 Post subject:

Well, you can automate quests, but they'll need stories to them. For instance, why are we collecting 3 snake fangs, exploring befallen and casting minor heal on a rock?

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khrath
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8750

Posted: 09/22/04 - 12:45 Post subject:

i like auto generated adventures. Can't really call them quests....that sounds too much like picking up groceries from the store for some old woman

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compusmack
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 6354

Posted: 09/22/04 - 13:03 Post subject:

I like auto-generated quests (early primitive examples are diablo / darkstone) but you definitely have to incorporate a wide range of possibilites or it's just 8 possible quests to replace 1. It should be so random that maybe one in 10000 people has a repeat. Quests for MMORPGS should never involve extremely rare spawn mobs that everyone is waiting/camping for, those are the absolute worst. I am a much bigger fan of trials (bcnm for ffxi peeps) where your skills as a party or solo are tested. I also like quests that involve making your way through a dangerous dungeon to talk to some NPC at the bottom level. It's more like an adventure that way. Large encounters are ok for epic type quests and raids, but they suck for regular quest stuff.

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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central

Posted: 09/22/04 - 13:06 Post subject:

Some of you guys put far too much into the creative effort of underpaid, unimaginative quest makers who are paid to churn out 7600 quests per month. People arguing computers cannot be creative are really just mininformed. Music is a whole lot more complicated than s**y MMO quests, and computers already generate music. Maybe it's hard for dullards to envision a story-based hierarchy of quest components. It seems pretty straightforward to me. Have you ever considered taking an art class? Or would you spend all your time criticizing the adjectives the teacher uses when speaking? Ya dumb dk.

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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central

Posted: 09/22/04 - 13:11 Post subject:

That's neat, Compu. Spawning NPCs based on when a party approaches them (for instance, at bottom of dungeon). You could have a hand-picked list of "neat spots" or "hot spots" per zone, such as at the edge of cliffs or at the bottom of dungeons. Those spots would be placeholders for dynamics NPCs to spawn. The NPC only spawns as a player (or group) with the appropriate quest flags approaches. Say you use the 7,492 zones from EQ, and each one has 10 neat spots. Suddenly, you've opened up 70k more quests (or sub-quests), with variants such as: "Meet my assistant, Lord Nizzletits, in the safe room of Guk in the next hour." "Resurrect a fallen comrade anywhere in the Plane of Valor." "Taunt or kick a merchant in Southern Erudin." etc

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Zuldane
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 4057
Location: At sea.

Posted: 09/22/04 - 13:14 Post subject:

THE QUEST BEGINS AT THE MOTHER OF A STOLEN CHILD. YOU MUST RESCUE THE CHILD FROM THE POSSESSION OF AN ORC LORD NAMED DABU-DABU. KILL DABU-DABU AND RETURN THE CHILD TO HER MOTHER. THE END - 10000000 EXP 42 GOLD

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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central

Posted: 09/22/04 - 13:19 Post subject:

Zuldane wrote:

THE QUEST BEGINS AT THE MOTHER OF A STOLEN CHILD. YOU MUST RESCUE THE CHILD FROM THE POSSESSION OF AN ORC LORD NAMED DABU-DABU. KILL DABU-DABU AND RETURN THE CHILD TO HER MOTHER. THE END - 10000000 EXP 42 GOLD

Stillborn or live?

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Zuldane
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 4057
Location: At sea.

Posted: 09/22/04 - 13:20 Post subject:

Occulis wrote:

Zuldane wrote:

THE QUEST BEGINS AT THE MOTHER OF A STOLEN CHILD. YOU MUST RESCUE THE CHILD FROM THE POSSESSION OF AN ORC LORD NAMED DABU-DABU. KILL DABU-DABU AND RETURN THE CHILD TO HER MOTHER. THE END - 10000000 EXP 42 GOLD

Stillborn or live?

The child has been dead for 3 months because the mother's breasts were poisoned.

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