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Petition: Nahualli for U.S. President - reply if you agree

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motherface
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PostPosted: 07/22/05 - 17:31    Post subject: Petition: Nahualli for U.S. President - reply if you agree Reply with quote

Quote:
House approves Patriot Act
7/22/2005 11:37 AM
By: Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- President Bush is pleased the House approved extension of the Patriot Act and is urging the Senate to do likewise.

In a statement released by the White House, Bush said Congress needs to send him a bill that renews the act “without weakening our ability to fight terror.” Critics have civil liberties concerns.

After more than nine hours of debate, the House approved the measure 257-171.

Forty-three Democrats joined 214 Republicans in voting to renew key provisions of the Patriot Act that were set to expire at the end of the year.

The Senate Judiciary Committee approved its own extension of the bill, though it includes only four-year extensions for the roving wiretap and records search provisions.

A competing bill also has been approved by the Senate Intelligence Committee. It gives the FBI expanded powers to subpoena records without the approval of a judge or grand jury.


http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll414.xml

What is the USA PATRIOT Act?

Just six weeks after the September 11 attacks, a panicked Congress passed the "USA/Patriot Act," an overnight revision of the nation's surveillance laws that vastly expanded the government's authority to spy on its own citizens, while simultaneously reducing checks and balances on those powers like judicial oversight, public accountability, and the ability to challenge government searches in court.

Why Congress passed the Patriot Act

Most of the changes to surveillance law made by the Patriot Act were part of a longstanding law enforcement wish list that had been previously rejected by Congress, in some cases repeatedly. Congress reversed course because it was bullied into it by the Bush Administration in the frightening weeks after the September 11 attack.

The Senate version of the Patriot Act, which closely resembled the legislation requested by Attorney General John Ashcroft, was sent straight to the floor with no discussion, debate, or hearings. Many Senators complained that they had little chance to read it, much less analyze it, before having to vote. In the House, hearings were held, and a carefully constructed compromise bill emerged from the Judiciary Committee. But then, with no debate or consultation with rank-and-file members, the House leadership threw out the compromise bill and replaced it with legislation that mirrored the Senate version. Neither discussion nor amendments were permitted, and once again members barely had time to read the thick bill before they were forced to cast an up-or-down vote on it. The Bush Administration implied that members who voted against it would be blamed for any further attacks - a powerful threat at a time when the nation was expecting a second attack to come any moment and when reports of new anthrax letters were appearing daily.

Congress and the Administration acted without any careful or systematic effort to determine whether weaknesses in our surveillance laws had contributed to the attacks, or whether the changes they were making would help prevent further attacks. Indeed, many of the act's provisions have nothing at all to do with terrorism.

The Patriot Act increases the governments surveillance powers in four areas

The Patriot Act increases the governments surveillance powers in four areas:

1. Records searches. It expands the government's ability to look at records on an individual's activity being held by a third parties. (Section 215)
2. Secret searches. It expands the government's ability to search private property without notice to the owner. (Section 213)
3. Intelligence searches. It expands a narrow exception to the Fourth Amendment that had been created for the collection of foreign intelligence information (Section 218).
4. "Trap and trace" searches. It expands another Fourth Amendment exception for spying that collects "addressing" information about the origin and destination of communications, as opposed to the content (Section 214).

1. Expanded access to personal records held by third parties

One of the most significant provisions of the Patriot Act makes it far easier for the authorities to gain access to records of citizens' activities being held by a third party. At a time when computerization is leading to the creation of more and more such records, Section 215 of the Patriot Act allows the FBI to force anyone at all - including doctors, libraries, bookstores, universities, and Internet service providers - to turn over records on their clients or customers.

Unchecked power
The result is unchecked government power to rifle through individuals' financial records, medical histories, Internet usage, bookstore purchases, library usage, travel patterns, or any other activity that leaves a record. Making matters worse:

  • The government no longer has to show evidence that the subjects of search orders are an "agent of a foreign power," a requirement that previously protected Americans against abuse of this authority.
  • The FBI does not even have to show a reasonable suspicion that the records are related to criminal activity, much less the requirement for "probable cause" that is listed in the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. All the government needs to do is make the broad assertion that the request is related to an ongoing terrorism or foreign intelligence investigation.
  • Judicial oversight of these new powers is essentially non-existent. The government must only certify to a judge - with no need for evidence or proof - that such a search meets the statute's broad criteria, and the judge does not even have the authority to reject the application.
  • Surveillance orders can be based in part on a person's First Amendment activities, such as the books they read, the Web sites they visit, or a letter to the editor they have written.
  • A person or organization forced to turn over records is prohibited from disclosing the search to anyone. As a result of this gag order, the subjects of surveillance never even find out that their personal records have been examined by the government. That undercuts an important check and balance on this power: the ability of individuals to challenge illegitimate searches.

Why the Patriot Act's expansion of records searches is unconstitutional
Section 215 of the Patriot Act violates the Constitution in several ways. It:

  • Violates the Fourth Amendment, which says the government cannot conduct a search without obtaining a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime.
  • Violates the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech by prohibiting the recipients of search orders from telling others about those orders, even where there is no real need for secrecy.
  • Violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to launch investigations of American citizens in part for exercising their freedom of speech.
  • Violates the Fourth Amendmentby failing to provide notice - even after the fact - to persons whose privacy has been compromised. Notice is also a key element of due process, which is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.

2. More secret searches

For centuries, common law has required that the government can't go into your property without telling you, and must therefore give you notice before it executes a search. That "knock and announce" principle has long been recognized as a part of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution.

The Patriot Act, however, unconstitutionally amends the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure to allow the government to conduct searches without notifying the subjects, at least until long after the search has been executed. This means that the government can enter a house, apartment or office with a search warrant when the occupants are away, search through their property, take photographs, and in some cases even seize property - and not tell them until later.

Notice is a crucial check on the government's power because it forces the authorities to operate in the open, and allows the subject of searches to protect their Fourth Amendment rights. For example, it allows them to point out irregularities in a warrant, such as the fact that the police are at the wrong address, or that the scope of the warrant is being exceeded (for example, by rifling through dresser drawers in a search for a stolen car). Search warrants often contain limits on what may be searched, but when the searching officers have complete and unsupervised discretion over a search, a property owner cannot defend his or her rights.

Finally, this new "sneak and peek" power can be applied as part of normal criminal investigations; it has nothing to do with fighting terrorism or collecting foreign intelligence.

3. Expansion of the intelligence exception in wiretap law

Under the Patriot Act, the FBI can secretly conduct a physical search or wiretap on American citizens to obtain evidence of crime without proving probable cause, as the Fourth Amendment explicitly requires.

A 1978 law called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) created an exception to the Fourth Amendment's requirement for probable cause when the purpose of a wiretap or search was to gather foreign intelligence. The rationale was that since the search was not conducted for the purpose of gathering evidence to put someone on trial, the standards could be loosened. In a stark demonstration of why it can be dangerous to create exceptions to fundamental rights, however, the Patriot Act expanded this once-narrow exception to cover wiretaps and searches that DO collect evidence for regular domestic criminal cases. FISA previously allowed searches only if the primary purpose was to gather foreign intelligence. But the Patriot Act changes the law to allow searches when "a significant purpose" is intelligence. That lets the government circumvent the Constitution's probable cause requirement even when its main goal is ordinary law enforcement.

The eagerness of many in law enforcement to dispense with the requirements of the Fourth Amendment was revealed in August 2002 by the secret court that oversees domestic intelligence spying (the "FISA Court"). Making public one of its opinions for the first time in history, the court revealed that it had rejected an attempt by the Bush Administration to allow criminal prosecutors to use intelligence warrants to evade the Fourth Amendment entirely. The court also noted that agents applying for warrants had regularly filed false and misleading information. That opinion is now on appeal.

4. Expansion of the "pen register" exception in wiretap law

Another exception to the normal requirement for probable cause in wiretap law is also expanded by the Patriot Act. Years ago, when the law governing telephone wiretaps was written, a distinction was created between two types of surveillance. The first allows surveillance of the content or meaning of a communication, and the second only allows monitoring of the transactional or addressing information attached to a communication. It is like the difference between reading the address printed on the outside of a letter, and reading the letter inside, or listening to a phone conversation and merely recording the phone numbers dialed and received.

Wiretaps limited to transactional or addressing information are known as "Pen register/trap and trace" searches (for the devices that were used on telephones to collect telephone numbers). The requirements for getting a PR/TT warrant are essentially non-existent: the FBI need not show probable cause or even reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. It must only certify to a judge - without having to prove it - that such a warrant would be "relevant" to an ongoing criminal investigation. And the judge does not even have the authority to reject the application.

The Patriot Act broadens the pen register exception in two ways:

"Nationwide" pen register warrants
Under the Patriot Act PR/TT orders issued by a judge are no longer valid only in that judge's jurisdiction, but can be made valid anywhere in the United States. This "nationwide service" further marginalizes the role of the judiciary, because a judge cannot meaningfully monitor the extent to which his or her order is being used. In addition, this provision authorizes the equivalent of a blank warrant: the court issues the order, and the law enforcement agent fills in the places to be searched. That is a direct violation of the Fourth Amendment's explicit requirement that warrants be written "particularly describing the place to be searched."

Pen register searches applied to the Internet
The Patriot Act applies the distinction between transactional and content-oriented wiretaps to the Internet. The problem is that it takes the weak standards for access to transactional data and applies them to communications that are far more than addresses. On an e-mail message, for example, law enforcement has interpreted the "header" of a message to be transactional information accessible with a PR/TT warrant. But in addition to routing information, e-mail headers include the subject line, which is part of the substance of a communication - on a letter, for example, it would clearly be inside the envelope.

The government also argues that the transactional data for Web surfing is a list of the URLs or Web site addresses that a person visits. For example, it might record the fact that they visited "www.aclu.org" at 1:15 in the afternoon, and then skipped over to "www.fbi.gov" at 1:30. This claim that URLs are just addressing data breaks down in two different ways:

  • Web addresses are rich and revealing content. The URLs or "addresses" of the Web pages we read are not really addresses, they are the titles of documents that we download from the Internet. When we "visit" a Web page what we are really doing is downloading that page from the Internet onto our computer, where it is displayed. Therefore, the list of URLs that we visit during a Web session is really a list of the documents we have downloaded - no different from a list of electronic books we might have purchased online. That is much richer information than a simple list of the people we have communicated with; it is intimate information that reveals who we are and what we are thinking about - much more like the content of a phone call than the number dialed. After all, it is often said that reading is a "conversation" with the author.
  • Web addresses contain communications sent by a surfer. URLs themselves often have content embedded within them. A search on the Google search engine, for example, creates a page with a custom-generated URL that contains material that is clearly private content, such as: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=****+orientation

Similarly, if I fill out an online form - to purchase goods or register my preferences, for example - those products and preferences will often be identified in the resulting URL.

The erosion of accountability

Attempts to find out how the new surveillance powers created by the Patriot Act were implemented during their first year were in vain. In June 2002 the House Judiciary Committee demanded that the Department of Justice answer questions about how it was using its new authority. The Bush/Ashcroft Justice Department essentially refused to describe how it was implementing the law; it left numerous substantial questions unanswered, and classified others without justification. In short, not only has the Bush Administration undermined judicial oversight of government spying on citizens by pushing the Patriot Act into law, but it is also undermining another crucial check and balance on surveillance powers: accountability to Congress and the public.

Non-surveillance provisions

Although this fact sheet focuses on the direct surveillance provisions of the Patriot Act, citizens should be aware that the act also contains a number of other provisions. The Act:

  • Puts CIA back in business of spying on Americans. The Patriot Act gives the Director of Central Intelligence the power to identify domestic intelligence requirements. That opens the door to the same abuses that took place in the 1970s and before, when the CIA engaged in widespread spying on protest groups and other Americans.
  • Creates a new crime of "domestic terrorism." The Patriot Act transforms protesters into terrorists if they engage in conduct that "involves acts dangerous to human life" to "influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion." How long will it be before an ambitious or politically motivated prosecutor uses the statute to charge members of controversial activist groups like Operation Rescue or Greenpeace with terrorism? Under the Patriot Act, providing lodging or assistance to such "terrorists" exposes a person to surveillance or prosecution. Furthermore, the law gives the attorney general and the secretary of state the power to detain or deport any non-citizen who belongs to or donates money to one of these broadly defined "domestic terrorist" groups.
  • Allows for the indefinite detention of non-citizens. The Patriot Act gives the attorney general unprecedented new power to determine the fate of immigrants. The attorney general can order detention based on a certification that he or she has "reasonable grounds to believe" a non-citizen endangers national security. Worse, if the foreigner does not have a country that will accept them, they can be detained indefinitely without trial.


Last edited by motherface on 07/25/05 - 17:07; edited 1 time in total
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sinrakin
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PostPosted: 07/22/05 - 17:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

The terrorists win another round.
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motherface
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PostPosted: 07/22/05 - 17:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/media/paper410/news/2003/09/14/StateLocal/Critics.Cite.Patriot.Act.Abuse.And.Misuse-465391.shtml

Quote:
The Daily Texan - State & Local
Issue: 9/14/03

Critics cite PATRIOT Act abuse and misuse
By David B. Caruso (Associated Press)

PHILADELPHIA - In the two years since law enforcement agencies gained fresh powers to help them track down and punish terrorists, police and prosecutors have increasingly turned the force of the new laws not on al-Qaida cells but on people charged with common crimes.

The Justice Department said it has used authority given to it by the PATRIOT Act to crack down on currency smugglers and seize money hidden overseas by alleged bookies, con artists and drug dealers.

Federal prosecutors used the act in June to file a charge of "terrorism using a weapon of mass destruction" against a California man after a pipe bomb exploded in his lap, wounding him as he sat in his car.

A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.

Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.

Civil liberties and legal defense groups are bothered by the string of cases, and say the government soon will be routinely using harsh anti-terrorism laws against run-of-the-mill lawbreakers.

"Within six months of passing the PATRIOT Act, the Justice Department was conducting seminars on how to stretch the new wiretapping provisions to extend them beyond terror cases," said Dan Dodson, a spokesman for the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys. "They say they want the PATRIOT Act to fight terrorism. Then, within six months, they are teaching their people how to use it on ordinary citizens."

Prosecutors aren't apologizing.

Attorney General John Ashcroft completed a 16-city tour this week defending the act as key to preventing a second catastrophic terrorist attack. Federal prosecutors have brought more than 250 criminal charges under the law, with more than 130 convictions or guilty pleas.

The law, passed two months after the Sept. 11 attacks, erased many restrictions that had barred the government from spying on its citizens, granting agents new powers to use wiretaps, conduct electronic and computer eavesdropping and access private financial data.

Stefan Cassella, deputy chief for legal policy for the Justice Department's asset forfeiture and money laundering section, said that while the PATRIOT Act's primary focus was on terrorism, lawmakers were aware it contained provisions that had been on prosecutors' wish lists for years and would be used in a wide variety of cases.

In one case this year, investigators used a provision of the PATRIOT Act to recover $4.5 million from a group of telemarketers accused of tricking elderly U.S. citizens into thinking they had won the Canadian lottery. Prosecutors said the defendants told victims they would receive their prize as soon as they paid thousands of dollars in income tax on their winnings.

Before the anti-terrorism act, U.S. officials would have had to use international treaties and appeal for help from foreign governments to retrieve the cash, deposited in banks in Jordan and Israel. Now, they simply seized it from assets held by those banks in the United States.

"These are appropriate uses of the statute," Cassella said. "If we can use the statute to get money back for victims, we are going to do it."

The complaint that anti-terrorism legislation is being used to go after people who aren't terrorists is just the latest in a string of criticisms.

More than 150 local governments have passed resolutions opposing the law as an overly broad threat to constitutional rights.
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Eurotrash
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PostPosted: 07/22/05 - 18:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

These measures are incosequential. The true solution is to ban members of the moslem faith from living or failing that to pack them back to the Middle East and keep them out of the western world for good.
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Occulis
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PostPosted: 07/22/05 - 18:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool. Let's wiretap the congressmen's homes.
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Xenden
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PostPosted: 07/22/05 - 18:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mad triple post skills.
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Aluaeia
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PostPosted: 07/22/05 - 20:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eurotrash wrote:
These measures are incosequential. The true solution is to ban members of the moslem faith from living or failing that to pack them back to the Middle East and keep them out of the western world for good.


You're a f*****g retard. Yes, We should repeal the FIRST f*****g AMENDMENT.
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Frax
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PostPosted: 07/22/05 - 20:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

sinrakin wrote:
The terrorists win another round.


EL OH EL
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Ishmael
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PostPosted: 07/22/05 - 21:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyshittripplepostbatman
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Aluaeia
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PostPosted: 07/22/05 - 21:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm... shitripple...
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PostPosted: 07/22/05 - 22:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aluaeia wrote:
Mmm... shitripple...


Does this mean shit makes you go "mmm?"
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Zonk
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 01:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

you need to kill yourself if you triple post and dont mean it.
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wellspoken
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 01:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.



????


Around here he would be getting around 20+ probably. ESP if he had a shit load of the drug. They're cracking down hard on meth. Stupid meth heads.
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Ecstacie
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 02:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

whoopidy doo! Heres a cookie!
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 10:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

wellspoken wrote:
A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.



????


Around here he would be getting around 20+ probably. ESP if he had a shit load of the drug. They're cracking down hard on meth. Stupid meth heads.




That shit is not a mild drug, it is bath tub chemistry, there's like 5 different ways the shit can be made.

Oh you cant find the right stuff? No problem, just do this and use this, you get the same effect.

They use shit that will f*****g kill you, to refine another antoher drug so you can get a buzz...anyone making that shit deserves to spend life in jail =p

All you ppl whining about the patriot act.

Hey, what you don't know won't hurt you.

The FBI aren't going to watch your j*****f habbits, and run tell your mom that you jerked it to gay porn once.

They only care about crimes.

If you're commiting crimes, YOU DESERVE TO GET CAUGHT.

Laws aren't in place to protect criminals.

Deal with it.
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motherface
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 11:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

khrath wrote:
All you ppl whining about the patriot act.

Hey, what you don't know won't hurt you.

The FBI aren't going to watch your j*****f habbits, and run tell your mom that you jerked it to gay porn once.

They only care about crimes.

If you're commiting crimes, YOU DESERVE TO GET CAUGHT.

Laws aren't in place to protect criminals.

Deal with it.


Is this a troll, or are you this dumb?
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Frax
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 11:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it encouraging that the people who have served their country understand what the intent of the patriot act is, and those who haven't gone out and served are the ones decrying it as some sort of soviet police state activity.
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khrath
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 11:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

motherface wrote:
khrath wrote:
All you ppl whining about the patriot act.

Hey, what you don't know won't hurt you.

The FBI aren't going to watch your j*****f habbits, and run tell your mom that you jerked it to gay porn once.

They only care about crimes.

If you're commiting crimes, YOU DESERVE TO GET CAUGHT.

Laws aren't in place to protect criminals.

Deal with it.


Is this a troll, or are you this dumb?


It's the truth.

name one instance where the patriot act was used to spy on someone who they did not suspect of commiting a crime.

Not one instance where they found nothing, we dont need the patriot act to rack up surveilance that turns up nothing, it happened before the patriot act and will happen long after.

now what was your complaint?

You didnt like them knowing you download underage porn, you illegally download movies, grow pot in the closet, what is your reason that you do not want your country to have the ability to perform surveilance on people who they suspect are commiting a crime?
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motherface
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 11:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frax wrote:
I find it encouraging that the people who have served their country understand what the intent of the patriot act is, and those who haven't gone out and served are the ones decrying it as some sort of soviet police state activity.


Hmm, people who've worked for the government and have put their lives at risk for the government convinced themselves that the government can't do anything bad. Seems like a common rationalization, I mean, you don't want to think you're working for evil people, right?

And just because you haven't heard about it being used in an instance in which they found "nothing" doesn't mean it hasn't happened. If everybody is sworn to secrecy by this law, why would you hear about it unless the feds want you to? If they have a wiretap on your line right now, do you think you're going to know about it? Are they going to make it into a press release if they don't find anything? Get real, and stop being so ignorant. The government has, in the past, spied on people who have disagreed with it, even if they weren't doing anything illegal or even planning it. This law makes spying on political opponents easy.

And if you can't understand why an overly broad law is bad in principle then you really are dumb.
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IceIsFun
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 11:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

motherface wrote:
Frax wrote:
I find it encouraging that the people who have served their country understand what the intent of the patriot act is, and those who haven't gone out and served are the ones decrying it as some sort of soviet police state activity.


Hmm, people who've worked for the government and have put their lives at risk for the government convinced themselves that the government can't do anything bad. Seems like a common rationalization, I mean, you don't want to think you're working for evil people, right?

And just because you haven't heard about it being used in an instance in which they found "nothing" doesn't mean it hasn't happened. If everybody is sworn to secrecy by this law, why would you hear about it unless the feds want you to? If they have a wiretap on your line right now, do you think you're going to know about it? Are they going to make it into a press release if they don't find anything? Get real, and stop being so ignorant. The government has, in the past, spied on people who have disagreed with it, even if they weren't doing anything illegal or even planning it. This law makes spying on political opponents easy.

And if you can't understand why an overly broad law is bad in principle then you really are dumb.


So what you're really worried about is that this will be used to subvert democracy? Or are you worried that they'll monitor your embarassing personal habits? Wake up, you never had a right to complete privacy and you never will. I'm all-for protecting rights, but this is something necessary for sniffing out terrorists within the U.S. (and elsewhere). When it comes to anti-terrorism, surveillance and civil rights, we've been too sheltered for too long.
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motherface
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 12:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, well that's good logic: since our right to privacy wasn't perfect before, we shouldn't balk at attempts to weaken it further, and should welcome these changes as they're "protecting" us from "terrorists."

Here's some food for thought (which I know is anathema here): the MPAA and RIAA are lobbying hard to establish the downloading of movies and music from the Internet as terrorism. Bush this week created a high-level post to "combat piracy." The wheels are in motion. When the feds use the Patriot act to determine that you're downloading some faggy anime and then arrest you for piracy, aka terrorism, maybe you'll think twice.
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 12:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

motherface wrote:
Ah, well that's good logic: since our right to privacy wasn't perfect before, we shouldn't balk at attempts to weaken it further, and should welcome these changes as they're "protecting" us from "terrorists."

Here's some food for thought (which I know is anathema here): the MPAA and RIAA are lobbying hard to establish the downloading of movies and music from the Internet as terrorism. Bush this week created a high-level post to "combat piracy." The wheels are in motion. When the feds use the Patriot act to determine that you're downloading some faggy anime and then arrest you for piracy, aka terrorism, maybe you'll think twice.


You won't be bothered by this unless you break the law. If that's the case then no one cares how much you cry when you're caught.
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Frax
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PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 12:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

motherface wrote:
Frax wrote:
I find it encouraging that the people who have served their country understand what the intent of the patriot act is, and those who haven't gone out and served are the ones decrying it as some sort of soviet police state activity.


Hmm, people who've worked for the government and have put their lives at risk for the government convinced themselves that the government can't do anything bad. Seems like a common rationalization, I mean, you don't want to think you're working for evil people, right?

And just because you haven't heard about it being used in an instance in which they found "nothing" doesn't mean it hasn't happened. If everybody is sworn to secrecy by this law, why would you hear about it unless the feds want you to? If they have a wiretap on your line right now, do you think you're going to know about it? Are they going to make it into a press release if they don't find anything? Get real, and stop being so ignorant. The government has, in the past, spied on people who have disagreed with it, even if they weren't doing anything illegal or even planning it. This law makes spying on political opponents easy.

And if you can't understand why an overly broad law is bad in principle then you really are dumb.


Yes it's great to stand up for your liberties. What the f**k have you ever done to help protect any of them? Posting on realpoor and jerking off over john kerry doesn't count.
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khrath
RealPoor Master of Posts
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8750



PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 14:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

motherface wrote:
If they have a wiretap on your line right now, do you think you're going to know about it?



I wouldn't care if they have any kind of surveilance on me.

Why would I?

If they wanna smell what my shit smells like, they can feel free to sniff my used toilet paper for all i care.

Also, since you like to play the conspiracy theorist. They don't wire tap shit anymore brain child. They can listen in on anyones phone right now chief.


They have direct access and can at will pop in for a nice laugh as they listen to you cry your eyes out to your fat girlfriend because she cheated on you.

They don't need to park a van across the street or plant a bug. they do it from the comfort of their own offices, and they don't even have to ask.
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kireol
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Joined: 02 Aug 2003
Posts: 9517
Location: Royal Oak, MI



PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 14:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

America f**k yeah!
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Mugaaz
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Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576



PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 16:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frax wrote:
I find it encouraging that the people who have served their country understand what the intent of the patriot act is, and those who haven't gone out and served are the ones decrying it as some sort of soviet police state activity.


I think those who served their country would be most offended of all.
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Frax
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers



PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 17:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mugaaz wrote:
Frax wrote:
I find it encouraging that the people who have served their country understand what the intent of the patriot act is, and those who haven't gone out and served are the ones decrying it as some sort of soviet police state activity.


I think those who served their country would be most offended of all.


Why? The same people who are going out and giving their life so you can sit around and play DDR should be upset that omg granny might get wire tapped? The people in the military know that most of what goes on in the military/police/intelligence is geared to protect us all, it's not some insidious Dr. Evil plot to turn the USA into russia.
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Orbit
Luke Warm
Luke Warm


Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491



PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 17:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't get it do ya.. First it this and whats next book burning


Big Brother wasn't fiction it seems..

Terrorist win.. They have made the government more paranoid where they start taking away right from the citizens of this country.. BOOYAHH!
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL



PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 17:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orbit wrote:
You don't get it do ya.. First it this and whats next book burning


Big Brother wasn't fiction it seems..

Terrorist win.. They have made the government more paranoid where they start taking away right from the citizens of this country.. BOOYAHH!


What rights did they take from us?

Would you rather us just leave the front door open for them?
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Orbit
Luke Warm
Luke Warm


Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491



PostPosted: 07/23/05 - 17:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

What wrong with the old way of getting a judge OKing stuff before they jump in to spying or whatever..

I am sorry but they are not right all the time. Just look at the kid that was shot in London he wasn't part of the terrorist ring.. His crime he was scared..

Sad day for London I say.. Hell I thought all bobbies didn't even carry guns..

Score another one for the terrorist...


Last edited by Orbit on 07/23/05 - 17:27; edited 1 time in total
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