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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
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 Posted: 04/27/04 - 19:27 Post subject: Op-Ed on the failure of Arab culture
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Great article by Ralph Peters in the NY Post, I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but he makes some very good points. Nice to see a man not afraid to make some cold hard analysis that is not politically correct.
| Quote: | By RALPH PETERS
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April 23, 2004 -- WE shouldn't be discouraged by the recent round of violence in Iraq. It was predictable. But there were two disheartening signs:
* We should be troubled that, in this bloody month, none of the insurgents waved an alternative constitution - unless we count their perversion of the Koran. None of those violent men is fighting for freedom - they're fighting to strangle liberty in the cradle. They are, without exception, forces of reaction, not liberation, no matter how madly al-Jazeera twists the facts.
* Nor did the general Arab population or its leaders take a public stand against those who would renew their oppression. And those who will not defend their own freedom do not deserve to be defended by others.
Operation Iraqi Freedom has been, among other things, an attempt to give Arabs hope for a better future. The ultimate outcome won't be known for years, but we must prepare ourselves for the possibility that the Arabs are going to fail themselves again.
With sufficient troops, we can force Iraq's Arabs to behave. But we can't force them to succeed.
Ultimately, Iraq is not a test of the limits of American power. When necessary, we can do whatever must be done for our security and prosperity. Our use of force, in Iraq and elsewhere, has been remarkably - even foolishly - restrained.
If Iraq collapses into medieval fantasies and blood feuds, we still may be proud of having given this crippled civilization a last, great chance to heal itself. We've made mistakes, but their impact is minor compared to the unwillingness of Iraq's Arabs, Sunni or Shi'a, to build a free and civil society of their own.
In the United States, campus-generated political correctness was never more than a joke - capable of turning somber conservatives purple but unable to alter anything that matters. The far more dangerous form of political correctness is that which prevails in the dream-world of diplomacy: We pretend that all civilizations have equal merit.
But they don't. It's time to face up to the functional and moral collapse of the Arab world - if we can't describe the problem honestly, we shall never deal with it effectively.
Arab civilization has failed.
Disguised in part by the trappings of oil wealth, the Middle East has become humanity's sinkhole, less promising, if richer, than Africa. But no facade of garish hotels in the hollow states that line the Persian Gulf, and no amount of full-page advertisements funded by the Saudi government, can hide the truth any longer: The Arab Middle East has become the world's first entirely parasitical culture; all it does is to imitate poorly, consume voraciously, spit hatred, export death and create nothing.
Arab civilization offers its people no promising future, only rhetoric about a past whose achievements have been as exaggerated as they were impermanent. The present is a bloody, heartless muddle.
For all the oil wealth and expatriate university degrees, for all the hired-in expertise and Western "engagement," Arab civilization has degenerated to a point where it provides the rest of humanity nothing useful of its own design - while offering its own citizens only a culture of blame, corruption and lethargy.
It's a matter of culture, not race. In the free atmosphere of America, Arabs do as well as anyone else. All populations have their share of talent - but the oppressive environment of the Middle East enervates those individuals it does not crush entirely.
Iraq has been given a chance to break free of the thrall of a bankrupt culture, to establish a rule-of-law democratic government observant of human rights. But the chances are increasingly good that Iraq's Arabs will fail to achieve and maintain even minimal standards of good governance.
The time has not yet come, but, contrary to the sort of diplomatic wisdom that so long protected Saddam, we can walk away if Iraq's Arabs refuse to help themselves. And we can break up the country to protect the Kurds - a far better solution than turning Iraq over to the venal brokers of the United Nations.
The failure of Arab civilization in our time is the greatest such disaster in mankind's history. And, bitter though we find the proposition, the failure is so colossal that it cannot be neatly contained. Whether in Iraq today or elsewhere tomorrow, we cannot fully extract ourselves from this problem simply because our enemies won't let go.
If Iraq chooses failure, we can leave. But we'll be back, somewhere in the Middle East. Because, as we saw on 9/11, the Middle East will continue to come to us. Blame is the opium of the Arabs, and the sweetest blame for their failures is that directed at the United States (and, of course, Israel). It is our power itself, not its uses, that enrages Arabs trapped in their self-made weakness.
The oft-cited examples of the Arab world's problems, from a lack of interest in secular education and a poor work ethic to staggering corruption and the oppression of women, are symptoms, not root causes, of Arab failure. Past a certain analytical point, we come up against the wall of our own taboos - we cannot admit that the psychological premises of an entire civilization might be dysfunctional. Arab failure isn't about that which has been done to the Middle East, but that which the Middle East has done to itself.
Iraq still has a chance, if a slimmer one than we had hoped. But even if Iraq's Arabs disappoint our ambitions, our efforts will have been worthy and our losses not in vain. Intervention was unavoidable, whatever the critics say. Continued passivity in the face of the Middle East's implosion would only have made the price higher in the end.
We all would be better off were the Arabs to surprise us by building healthy, prosperous, modern societies. We would be foolish not to wish them well. But we would be equally foolish not to prepare ourselves for the consequences of their accelerating failure.
Ralph Peters is the author of "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace."
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Ikkan
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Joined: 06 Sep 2003
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Posted: 04/27/04 - 19:29 Post subject:
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Good article, makes good points on both sides in a way.
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median
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
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Location: Hamillton, Canada
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Posted: 04/27/04 - 20:17 Post subject:
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median
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 2183
Location: Hamillton, Canada
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Posted: 04/27/04 - 20:17 Post subject:
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pyrgomache
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1075
Location: Here
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Posted: 04/27/04 - 20:19 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: |
an attempt to give Arabs hope for a better future. |
I stopped reading when I saw that.
Last edited by pyrgomache on 04/27/04 - 20:21; edited 1 time in total
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pyrgomache
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
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Posted: 04/27/04 - 20:20 Post subject:
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median
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 2183
Location: Hamillton, Canada
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Posted: 04/27/04 - 20:22 Post subject:
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| pyrgomache wrote: | |
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lauren000
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Joined: 21 Oct 2002
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Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 04/27/04 - 20:39 Post subject:
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they are still stuck in religious based defeatism and escapism. That is why they are still stuck in the stone age and playing with modern day toys.
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ATM Banana
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 8575
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Posted: 04/27/04 - 20:40 Post subject:
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I am sitting in a hammock while i write this.
ahahahaha, damn punjabs.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 04/27/04 - 20:43 Post subject:
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can we shut down Al Jazeera and force the New York times down their throats?
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Zapper
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1512
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: 04/27/04 - 21:07 Post subject:
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Good article
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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Posted: 04/27/04 - 21:09 Post subject:
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good to see you Vekril - please p**s somebody off soon - realpoor has missed you
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Regan
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
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Location: Miami
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 01:21 Post subject:
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| ATM Banana wrote: | I am sitting in a hammock while i write this.
ahahahaha, damn punjabs. |
punjab is Indian (as in from India, wouldn't want to see you confused again by thinking I ment native american) you fucktard 
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wellspoken
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 01:24 Post subject:
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| Regan wrote: | | ATM Banana wrote: | I am sitting in a hammock while i write this.
ahahahaha, damn punjabs. |
punjab is Indian (as in from India, wouldn't want to see you confused again by thinking I ment native american) you fucktard |
AHHHH b*****d..
I just spewed Mtn Dew on my keyboard when i read that.. =/
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Celestra
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 6929
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 04:20 Post subject:
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Good article. He makes some good points.
One thing I would put a question mark to is what he said here:
| Quote: | | We've made mistakes, but their impact is minor compared to the unwillingness of Iraq's Arabs, Sunni or Shi'a, to build a free and civil society of their own. |
We shouldn't be too quick to say people aren't willing to build a free and civil and prosperous society.
I think that's nonsense. I think most Iraq leaders do realise that something needs to be done, they just don't know how to go about it, and they can't see the big picture.
We must realise that Iraq has NO democratic political tradition whatsoever. Instead they have a religious political tradition. Whereas democracy is based in making compromises, religion is based in 'truths' that cannot be altered or compromised.
Leaders in Iraq (and their followers) are politically naieve when it comes to building a democratic society. They do not have basic tools like an understanding of how political negotiation works (proposal meets counterproposal meets compromise). They don't know about compromise and modern societies, they deal in demands and tradition, the more "hardline" a position they take, the more people will follow them.
As stubborn as they may seem, I don't think we should classify their inability to reach compromise and found an inclusive democracy in Iraq as an unwillingness to do so.
What Sinrakin once said definitly rings true: you cannot start a revolution for the Iraqi people and arrest/kill their leaders, and then step back and expect them to finish it the way you like it (democratically). It may just be that if they couldn't revolutionize themselves (because of lack of organisation and awareness for instance) that they weren't ready for it.
I really believe that.
I also believe Sadam was a dangerous menace.
I don't think there really is a 'right' answer here, but to classify a people as 'unwilling' to make a better life for themselves (and judging this by OUR standards) is not right either.
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Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 07:20 Post subject:
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| Celestra wrote: |
We must realise that Iraq has NO democratic political tradition whatsoever. Instead they have a religious political tradition. Whereas democracy is based in making compromises, religion is based in 'truths' that cannot be altered or compromised.
Leaders in Iraq (and their followers) are politically naieve when it comes to building a democratic society. They do not have basic tools like an understanding of how political negotiation works (proposal meets counterproposal meets compromise). They don't know about compromise and modern societies, they deal in demands and tradition, the more "hardline" a position they take, the more people will follow them.
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I think this is exactly what the author was speaking to when he said that Arab culture is a failure. It's not a matter of them being incapable. To take an example straight from the article, Arabs do fine in every other environment.
The problem is a bankrupt culture that assigns blame to external sources to cover it's own failings. It's a cultural failing that leads Arabs to believe that compromise is weakness. It's a cultural failure to not only see priests as infallible but to make them political leaders as well. Their political naivete is a direct result of their own culture.
I'm not entirely certain I agree with that but I'm having a difficult time faulting the author's logic.
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Zapper
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1512
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 07:29 Post subject:
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| Nuldaan wrote: | | Celestra wrote: |
We must realise that Iraq has NO democratic political tradition whatsoever. Instead they have a religious political tradition. Whereas democracy is based in making compromises, religion is based in 'truths' that cannot be altered or compromised.
Leaders in Iraq (and their followers) are politically naieve when it comes to building a democratic society. They do not have basic tools like an understanding of how political negotiation works (proposal meets counterproposal meets compromise). They don't know about compromise and modern societies, they deal in demands and tradition, the more "hardline" a position they take, the more people will follow them.
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I think this is exactly what the author was speaking to when he said that Arab culture is a failure. It's not a matter of them being incapable. To take an example straight from the article, Arabs do fine in every other environment.
The problem is a bankrupt culture that assigns blame to external sources to cover it's own failings. It's a cultural failing that leads Arabs to believe that compromise is weakness. It's a cultural failure to not only see priests as infallible but to make them political leaders as well. Their political naivete is a direct result of their own culture.
I'm not entirely certain I agree with that but I'm having a difficult time faulting the author's logic. |
I agree with what you are saying. I think Arabs are never taught to be independent and think for themselves they have been taught to follow. So as soon as a little 2 cent despot comes along what do they do? They follow him (Sadr) because there is no one else stepping up.
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Celestra
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 07:36 Post subject:
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| Nuldaan wrote: | | Celestra wrote: |
We must realise that Iraq has NO democratic political tradition whatsoever. Instead they have a religious political tradition. Whereas democracy is based in making compromises, religion is based in 'truths' that cannot be altered or compromised.
Leaders in Iraq (and their followers) are politically naieve when it comes to building a democratic society. They do not have basic tools like an understanding of how political negotiation works (proposal meets counterproposal meets compromise). They don't know about compromise and modern societies, they deal in demands and tradition, the more "hardline" a position they take, the more people will follow them.
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I think this is exactly what the author was speaking to when he said that Arab culture is a failure. It's not a matter of them being incapable. To take an example straight from the article, Arabs do fine in every other environment.
The problem is a bankrupt culture that assigns blame to external sources to cover it's own failings. It's a cultural failing that leads Arabs to believe that compromise is weakness. It's a cultural failure to not only see priests as infallible but to make them political leaders as well. Their political naivete is a direct result of their own culture.
I'm not entirely certain I agree with that but I'm having a difficult time faulting the author's logic. |
Ah but there's one thing you forget. We are judging them by western standards, standards that are based on a modern, democratic society and the way things work in such an environment. If you think that's the only way to be, you're just as politically naieve as they are. Just because we've elevated democracy to religion (and we have in some ways, think about it), doesn't mean it's the ultimate truth for everyone. Democracy has it's flaws, just like other systems of government.
Like I said, don't be so quick to classify something as unwillingness.
Bankrupt society? Wow, we as westerners do have balls don't we.
Yes, their failure to develop a viable political environment thusfar is partly because of their culture. But I do think we (we as in Westerners) had a little to do with the mess they're in right now.
We come in, bomb the whole f*****g country, take away their leader (as morally bankrupt as that individual and the leadership around him may be), dump the whole mess in their laps, and when they don't make sense of it in a way that WE understand, we throw their culture and their way of life in the dumpster?
Please.
The problems the Americans are facing with Iraqi leaders are in many ways the same problems as the UK has faced in the past in Ireland (unionists vs republicans(IRA)) and South Africa (white traditionalists vs blacks (ANC)). Although things may seem hopeless, writing a peoples culture or a groups culture off as morally bankrupt may make you feel better, but it's not very realistic or helpful. Ask Mrs. Thatcher ;p
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Celestra
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 07:48 Post subject:
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Also on a side note: breeding hate isn't in any way reserved for or confined to the Middle East.
There is hate everywhere. In Europe (between Dutch people and Germans, between protestants and catholics in Northern Ireland, between Italians and French and between Russians and a lot of East Block citizens, then we have Greece vs Turkey on Cyprus, and Europe vs America and I could go on), in America (white vs black, Americans vs Euro's), in Asia (colonial conflicts that linger, and between themselves, Indonesians vs Japanese is one I can think of and I'm sure there are many many more) and don't even get me started on Africa.
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khrath
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 08:11 Post subject:
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jew
sorry, didn't realize you'd posted, or i'd of gotten to this sooner
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 10:18 Post subject:
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Arabs are historically lazy, as long as someone who is "arab" leads them, they'll follow, regardless of the fact if the person is a tyrant or murderous psychopath (hello Saddam!), as long as they bring some sort of order to their lives. If you have been to the middle east (I have by the way) you'll see that in the rich nations (S.A., Kuwait, Jordan, Qatar, Baharain, etc) all of the labor is performed by Indonesians, Indians, Pakistanis, Sudanese... the upper caste does nothing but make money and arrange marriages for their daughters. Add to that the fact that they still seem to reside in the 15th century where women are property and human rights are non existant, its not hard to see why democracy is not a good fit for them. They have very little concept of patience, hell the day after the war the Iraqis rioted because they had no electricity, so what did they do? They attacked the powerstations. Thats really bright. Eventually they will realize that the people who are continually stirring the pot are not their friends, but people who for whatever reason have issue with the USA.
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Luturb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Location: Livermore, California
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 10:52 Post subject:
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Nice article, if a little discouraging.
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 11:08 Post subject:
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Celestra you just provided a perfect example of the problem the author is talking about when he writes this :
| Quote: | The far more dangerous form of political correctness is that which prevails in the dream-world of diplomacy: We pretend that all civilizations have equal merit.
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You need to lose your dream world view of the nobility and value of all cultures. Look at the history of the world. Western culture IS superior, it is the best thing that has ever happened to this planet, and the nations that succeed in providing the most freedoms and riches for their citizenry are those who have adopted a western culture. Yes its not perfect, but it IS the best.
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Celestra
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 11:15 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: | Celestra you just provided a perfect example of the problem the author is talking about when he writes this :
| Quote: | The far more dangerous form of political correctness is that which prevails in the dream-world of diplomacy: We pretend that all civilizations have equal merit.
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You need to lose your dream world view of the nobility and value of all cultures. Look at the history of the world. Western culture IS superior, it is the best thing that has ever happened to this planet, and the nations that succeed in providing the most freedoms and riches for their citizenry are those who have adopted a western culture. Yes its not perfect, but it IS the best. |
Uh.. I never said it wasn't the best.
I live in it remember? According to me it's the best.
Saying you value democracy a lot however cannot be equated with 'all other forms of civilisation are worthless', which is pretty much what the author is doing.
They're not worthless for one, and my point was not that democracy isn't Iraq's best choice. I just said that the leaders right now do not have a democratic tradition and therefor do not have the tools the western countries have developed over a period of centuries. And judging them on their lack of democratic skills, considering that their country has been run by a psychopath the last 10 years, may be a bit harsh, not to mention unrealistic.
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Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 18:13 Post subject:
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| Celestra wrote: | Ah but there's one thing you forget. We are judging them by western standards, standards that are based on a modern, democratic society and the way things work in such an environment. If you think that's the only way to be, you're just as politically naieve as they are. Just because we've elevated democracy to religion (and we have in some ways, think about it), doesn't mean it's the ultimate truth for everyone. Democracy has it's flaws, just like other systems of government.
Like I said, don't be so quick to classify something as unwillingness.
Bankrupt society? Wow, we as westerners do have balls don't we.
Yes, their failure to develop a viable political environment thusfar is partly because of their culture. But I do think we (we as in Westerners) had a little to do with the mess they're in right now.
We come in, bomb the whole f*****g country, take away their leader (as morally bankrupt as that individual and the leadership around him may be), dump the whole mess in their laps, and when they don't make sense of it in a way that WE understand, we throw their culture and their way of life in the dumpster?
Please.
The problems the Americans are facing with Iraqi leaders are in many ways the same problems as the UK has faced in the past in Ireland (unionists vs republicans(IRA)) and South Africa (white traditionalists vs blacks (ANC)). Although things may seem hopeless, writing a peoples culture or a groups culture off as morally bankrupt may make you feel better, but it's not very realistic or helpful. Ask Mrs. Thatcher ;p |
I don't think it's that far off the truth to call that culture a failure at this point. This isn't about just Iraq. This is about the Middle East in general. Throughout the entire region, every Muslim country is essentially a failure. They have money only because they have oil. Their people live in poverty. They produce nothing. Education is completely lacking. I'll take every one's word for it that they have a poor work ethic, although I have little evidence for or against this. That is the sign of a bankrupt society. It only consumes; it contributes nothing.
I don't particularly care if Iraq has a western democracy. However, it does need to create a government that is capable of producing a society that works. It also needs to create a government that is capable of interacting with the international community. Current Middle Eastern governments are failing in either one or both of these areas.
Iraq's Sadr is a perfect example. This man is a radical fundamentalist. Considering their recent experiences with Saddam, the Iraqi people should be appalled by this man. Instead they privately condone his actions by refusing to oppose him. It is a cultural failing that leads people to accept any strong leader as long as he promises some semblance of order.
This is not a problem that just appeared when the US sent troops into Iraq. Look at any Middle Eastern country and you will see the same thing. With the sole exception of Israel, every country is the same. The leaders have all the money. The citizens have nothing and no chance to get anything. The governments in these countries shift blame outside the country for their society's problems. The terrorists take advantage of that blame to use it as a recruiting ground for new troops. Iraq is the most visible current example but it is not the only one.
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Banzai
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 18:24 Post subject:
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The shame is Arab culture used to be worth a squirt of p**s a long time ago.
Even in educational circles if you can believe it. The Arabs, ironically, came up with the concept of zero.
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Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 18:34 Post subject:
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| Banzai wrote: | The shame is Arab culture used to be worth a squirt of p**s a long time ago.
Even in educational circles if you can believe it. The Arabs, ironically, came up with the concept of zero. |
I think that's part of the problem. Hanging on to the past and revelling in old glories is not helping their present and is ruining their future. It seems that the Middle East is living in a time warp and refusing to accept that the world has left them behind. The strong, vibrant societies that used to exist are just memories now. Clinging to old traditions and refusing to accept a new world is not helping them.
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Nobunaga
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 19:12 Post subject:
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The key word is patience. You can't force Western Ideals upon cultures that are not prepared to accept them but in the end, they will come around. American intervention may in fact prevent this transtion from naturally taking place sooner since they're focus will be upon their hatred towards us. Look what's occured/occuring in Vietnam, China among other places that are slowly opening it's doors to Western society. Forcing ones hand through events like Tienman Square, the Vietnam War cannot prevent the inevitable. For examples in the middle east, take a look at Turkey and Dubai of countries who are becoming more cosmopolitan to a degree. Arabs aren't lazy, stupid or whatever incorrect assumption you may have made of their society but has been merely in a geograhic environment thats been at the heart of endless confrontation for thousands of years that hasn't fostered change. If the Shah of wasnt overthrown by radical Shiites, Iran would've become a country similiar to Turkey. Yes, sometimes it's good to be proactive but sometimes it's better to be a spectator and let things evolve naturally. We just have to be patient in not only the Middle East but also areas like North Korea etc.
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Nuldaan
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 19:22 Post subject:
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| Nobunaga wrote: | | The key word is patience. You can't force Western Ideals upon cultures that are not prepared to accept them but in the end, they will come around. American intervention may in fact prevent this transtion from naturally taking place sooner since they're focus will be upon their hatred towards us. Look what's occured/occuring in Vietnam, China among other places that are slowly opening it's doors to Western society. Forcing ones hand through events like Tienman Square, the Vietnam War cannot prevent the inevitable. For examples in the middle east, take a look at Turkey and Dubai of countries who are becoming more cosmopolitan to a degree. Arabs aren't lazy, stupid or whatever incorrect assumption you may have made of their society but has been merely in a geograhic environment thats been at the heart of endless confrontation for thousands of years that hasn't fostered change. If the Shah of wasnt overthrown by radical Shiites, Iran would've become a country similiar to Turkey. Yes, sometimes it's good to be proactive but sometimes it's better to be a spectator and let things evolve naturally. We just have to be patient in not only the Middle East but also areas like North Korea etc. |
Bleh, I never said they were lazy or stupid or anything else. I said their culture appears to breed those traits.
Your post actually goes to the heart of what I believe the solution is. If a society is not working, the obvious answer is to change it. No one is arguing that all Muslims are worthless, that's obviously not true. Nor am I even in agreeance that Muslim society is entirely worthless, however, some aspects of that society definitely need to change before their lives are going to get better.
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Sasa
Sir Postalot
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 1213
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Posted: 04/28/04 - 19:24 Post subject:
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| median wrote: | |
I posted that like a yr ago after drinking it.
The messiah stout is exceptional and even the genesis ale is good.
the back of the bottles are cute.. they even say not brewed with Gefilte fish
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