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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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 Posted: 02/21/05 - 07:40 Post subject: Online Gambling
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I've heard a lot about people playing poker online - is there actually something to it, or is it mostly a rip off? (More so than at a normal casino :p)
From what I've seen they also offer Blackjack/Roulette etc, anyone ever played these online and ended up ahead? Seems like the casino is controlling what cards you get...
I'd appreciate any links to reliable gambling places - would be fun to play a few every now and then, without having to drive 30min to the local casino and play $20/hand min bet :p
They don't even have free drinks or any entertainment =/
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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 08:34 Post subject:
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There is endless debate about whether cards are controlled or they have AI players.
There was a site who's RNG was poorly created and exploited but that was fixed. Quite a few of the more popular sites had their RNG's tested by other reputable companies. One has had their entire source code looked over. With the smaller sites there is a possibility of them going out of business , which has also happened before. As far as AI players, I know of only 1 bigger site that still uses bots. And finally as to whether cards are controlled or not, everyone who's opinion on it matters, and all evidence points to - no, at least most likely.... there's a reason why people still debate it.
As to whether playing poker online for income is possible, the answer is yes. - The rake is lower, you don't have to tip the dealer, you can play faster, and you can play more than 1 table at a time.
Just know, that if you want to play poker for income, the knowledge, studying, reading, thinking, etc you have to do is enormous. The game is at least if not more complex than chess. Also, winning poker is pretty dull, actually it's almost entirely boring. You of course won't believe me and I'm wasting my time even writing it, but at least I can say I told you so.
If you want to learn how to play I recommend the following books in order.
Either:
A)
1. WLLH - Jones / ITH - Hilger
2. TOP - Sklansky
3. Middle Limit Holdem - Brier and Ciaffone
4. Small Stakes Holdem - Eddie et al.
5. HPFAP - Sklansky & Malmuth
B)
Internet Texas Hold'em (Matt Hilger )
Small Stakes Hold'em (Ed Miller, David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth)
The Theory of Poker (David Sklansky)
Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players (David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth)
If you're already a good to great chess, bridge, backgammon, Go, etc. player you can start with B. I'm guessing most people asking the question are in group A though.
Also, after you've spend 2-3 weeks playing I would definitley recommend buying PokerTracker. It's not too expensive and it's an insanely powerful tool.
As to how much money you can make? Anything over 1BB per hour is considered good. (BB is the big blind bet). While that may seems small. Keep in mind that virtually all advanced players play around 4 tables at once. Some play as many as 16. Most playing from $2-4 to $5-10 limits. Above that I don't know anyone who plays more than 6 tables successfully, and I don't know of many who play more than 4.
$30-60 is more or less the highest stakes available online. Though there is usually 1 table $100-200. Above that you have to go to Vegas. I think the highest stake games that are available all the time are 200/400 to 2000/4000. Virtually all high stakes tables are All professionals killing time taking each other's money until some rich guy comes to play and goes broke.
Let me just re-stress this point. Poker is like any other endeavor, it's fun and looks easy in the beginning. Once you are a good player, it get's pretty dull. You'll spend your days with your mind turned off 99% of the time and then come up on a wierd situation, wake up briefly, log it. Think it over and maybe discuss it on some forums for opinions. When you're not playing you are re-reading all your books. This is an online poker players life.
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Qaldyin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1346
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 12:14 Post subject:
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You really don't need all those books to learn how to play successfully, but I'm sure they would help. Best way to learn is by experience. It's just harder online because the only thing you can read off a person is their betting pattern.
Another thing you could do is learn how to calculate statistics. It's not entirely accurate, but it gives you a sense of where you stand. You have to compare the chance of you getting a card to the bets on the table.
I'm sure Mugaaz is gonna flame me telling me I'm wrong and talk about how he plays poker and he's a f*****g pro at it...
I'd say start off at the play money tables, but people have entirely different betting patterns there because none of them care if they lose pixels. Nice way to play competitively and learn the game is through freeroll tournaments. Or you could play at the 1/2 cent blind tables.
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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 15:52 Post subject:
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I'll just say that I'd love to play with Qayldin.
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Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 16:34 Post subject:
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| Mugaaz wrote: | | I'll just say that I'd love to play with Qayldin. |
Dance for your money, b***h!
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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 16:50 Post subject:
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No one wagers on DDR matches. DDR is too skill based, it is nearly impossible for a player even 99% as good as his competition to win. It's one of the few games like that.
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Qaldyin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1346
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 17:03 Post subject:
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Perfect human beings play DDR y0!
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Devook
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 2373
Location: Ypsilanti or Troy, MI
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 18:05 Post subject:
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Mugaaz falls under the category of Pokerstar jock. People in this category often have studied Texas Hold'em to the point of exhaustion and call themselves pros because they have watched Rounders starring Matt Damon more times than you have. Their bets are predictable and bluffs are evident, and they are often slightly harder to beat than your basic poker newbie.
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Qaldyin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1346
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 18:22 Post subject:
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Yup, those book people are easy to read in a tournament. You can tell too, they take 30 seconds to look in the book for advice on the hand...
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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 18:22 Post subject:
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| Devook wrote: | | Mugaaz falls under the category of Pokerstar jock. People in this category often have studied Texas Hold'em to the point of exhaustion and call themselves pros because they have watched Rounders starring Matt Damon more times than you have. Their bets are predictable and bluffs are evident, and they are often slightly harder to beat than your basic poker newbie. |
I'm available to play anytime online, let me know.
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Devook
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 2373
Location: Ypsilanti or Troy, MI
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 18:26 Post subject:
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I don't play online. Where's the fun in suckering someone all in on the low straight or a jack-high flush if you can't see his face when you drop the ace?
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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 18:36 Post subject:
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| Devook wrote: | | I don't play online. Where's the fun in suckering someone all in on the low straight or a jack-high flush if you can't see his face when you drop the ace? |
A sign of a great player is when he talks about how we won't play "becuase it's not fun".
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Devook
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 2373
Location: Ypsilanti or Troy, MI
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 18:46 Post subject:
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| Mugaaz wrote: | | Devook wrote: | | I don't play online. Where's the fun in suckering someone all in on the low straight or a jack-high flush if you can't see his face when you drop the ace? |
A sign of a great player is when he talks about how we won't play "becuase it's not fun". |
Good point. I'm sure when Michael Jordan doesn't play NBA Hoops with his buddies they call him a s****y basketball player.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 18:48 Post subject:
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You can't compare someone's athletic talent to the relative luck involved in playing cards. Thats an absurd comparison.
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Devook
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 2373
Location: Ypsilanti or Troy, MI
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 18:50 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: | | You can't compare someone's athletic talent to the relative luck involved in playing cards. Thats an absurd comparison. |
It's a comparison of skill vs. skill, where's the absurdity?
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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 19:01 Post subject:
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| Devook wrote: | | Frax wrote: | | You can't compare someone's athletic talent to the relative luck involved in playing cards. Thats an absurd comparison. |
It's a comparison of skill vs. skill, where's the absurdity? |
The absurdity is that MJ wouldn't not play a game becuase he didn't feel like playing if he was doing it for money. A poker player would play anyone he thinks he has an advantage over for the same reasons. The people who wouldn't are people who play for the thrill of gambling.
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Devook
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 2373
Location: Ypsilanti or Troy, MI
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 19:05 Post subject:
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You have retardified this thread and effectively killed whatever argument there was. I'm going to go play the EQ2 demo.
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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 19:09 Post subject:
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| Devook wrote: | | I lost. Going to go play a game to forget about it. |
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Devook
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 2373
Location: Ypsilanti or Troy, MI
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 19:16 Post subject:
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| Mugaaz wrote: | | My sentences are so convoluted and brainless I make Faulkner look like an grammar master. Also, I have problems interpreting points made by others. |
I'm still installing. 
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ashwynd
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Posts: 1686
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 19:31 Post subject:
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pokerroom.com there is a free tourney where you can win $$ every day at 4 est  Sign ups are at 2:30 est. It's great practice, but like it was said, I like watching people's tells when playing in person and you can't do that when playing online so it really has to do with more luck than anything. You never know who has the bigger balls and will call you all in on a stupid hand and end up with a straight on the river, I've seen it more times than I care to say.
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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 22:48 Post subject:
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| ashwynd wrote: | | pokerroom.com there is a free tourney where you can win $$ every day at 4 est Sign ups are at 2:30 est. It's great practice, but like it was said, I like watching people's tells when playing in person and you can't do that when playing online so it really has to do with more luck than anything. You never know who has the bigger balls and will call you all in on a stupid hand and end up with a straight on the river, I've seen it more times than I care to say. |
I have yet to see a person who disagrees that the experience of playing in person is more enjoyable. However, there is no more / less luck in either form. There are plenty of online tells to, though obviously not to the degree of live play. If you're playing for enjoyment / experience than obviously live wins every time. If you're playing to make money online wins all the time unless you're good enough to successfully beat the 100/200 or better.
Everytime some guy sucks you out by catching a lucky card you should grin ear to ear. Everytime you win by catching a lucky card it's time to reassess whether you should be playing.
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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 22:50 Post subject:
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| Devook wrote: | | Mugaaz wrote: | | My sentences are so convoluted and brainless I make Faulkner look like an grammar master. Also, I have problems interpreting points made by others. |
I'm still installing. |
I never claimed anything about my written communication skills. As Sklansky says - You can spend the money I save you on all the Hemingway you want.
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Tiluvas
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2355
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 23:21 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: | | You can't compare someone's athletic talent to the relative luck involved in playing cards. Thats an absurd comparison. |
Why does this still seem like gambling to you? I mean, why do you think the same five guys make it to the final table of the World Series of Poker EVERY SINGLE YEAR? What, are they the luckiest guys in Las Vegas? It's a skill game, Frax
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Qaldyin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1346
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Posted: 02/21/05 - 23:58 Post subject:
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Yes because a lot of those players play the player more than the cards. But you don't usually see them going in with stupid hands like K 3 unsuited either...
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Mugaaz
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3576
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Posted: 02/22/05 - 00:30 Post subject:
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What part are you responding too?
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Andur Ravenblade
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1214
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Posted: 02/22/05 - 02:23 Post subject:
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| Tiluvas wrote: | | Frax wrote: | | You can't compare someone's athletic talent to the relative luck involved in playing cards. Thats an absurd comparison. |
Why does this still seem like gambling to you? I mean, why do you think the same five guys make it to the final table of the World Series of Poker EVERY SINGLE YEAR? What, are they the luckiest guys in Las Vegas? It's a skill game, Frax |
Dude...wtf...
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Pringles In Your Face
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 384
Location: Fattguyy's Head
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Posted: 02/22/05 - 12:29 Post subject:
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| Tiluvas wrote: | | Frax wrote: | | You can't compare someone's athletic talent to the relative luck involved in playing cards. Thats an absurd comparison. |
Why does this still seem like gambling to you? I mean, why do you think the same five guys make it to the final table of the World Series of Poker EVERY SINGLE YEAR? What, are they the luckiest guys in Las Vegas? It's a skill game, Frax |
<3
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Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 1179
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Posted: 02/22/05 - 18:00 Post subject:
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| Andur Ravenblade wrote: | | Tiluvas wrote: | | Frax wrote: | | You can't compare someone's athletic talent to the relative luck involved in playing cards. Thats an absurd comparison. |
Why does this still seem like gambling to you? I mean, why do you think the same five guys make it to the final table of the World Series of Poker EVERY SINGLE YEAR? What, are they the luckiest guys in Las Vegas? It's a skill game, Frax |
Dude...wtf... |
He was quoting Rounders, I believe...
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