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sinrakin
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PostPosted: 05/27/04 - 22:47    Post subject: More American war crimes Reply with quote

I'm getting sort of sick of all these crimes being committed essentialy in my name. I thought it was a mistake to go in, but I also thought having done that it would be a mistake to bail out. But if we can't stop disgracing ourselves we should just leave.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-woabus263819545may26,0,4004730.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines
Quote:
May 26, 2004


BAGHDAD, Iraq -- U.S. troops wanted Jeanan Moayad's father. When they couldn't find him, they took her husband in his place.

Dhafir Ibrahim has been in U.S. custody for nearly four months. Moayad insists he is being held as a bargaining chip, and military officials have told her he will be released when her father surrenders. Her father is a scientist and former Baath party member who fled to Jordan soon after the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime.

"My husband is a hostage," said Moayad, 35, an architect who carries a small portrait of Ibrahim in her purse. "He didn't commit any crime."


Dozens detained

In a little-noticed development amid Iraq's prison abuse scandal, the U.S. military is holding dozens of Iraqis as bargaining chips to put pressure on their wanted relatives to surrender, according to human rights groups. These detainees are not accused of any crimes, and experts say their detention violates the Geneva Conventions and other international laws. The practice also risks associating the United States with the tactics of countries it has long criticized for arbitrary arrests.

"It's clearly an abuse of the powers of arrest, to arrest one person and say that you're going to hold him until he gives information about somebody else, especially a close relative," said John Quigley, an international law professor at Ohio State University. "Arrests are supposed to be based on suspicion that the person has committed some offense."

U.S. officials deny that there is a systematic practice of detaining relatives to pressure Iraqi fugitives into surrendering. "The coalition does not take hostages," said a senior military official who asked not to be named. "Relatives who might have information about wanted persons are sometimes detained for questioning, and then they are released. There is no policy of holding people as bargaining chips."

But Iraqi human rights groups say they have documented dozens of cases similar to Moayad's, in which family members who are not accused of any crimes have been detained for weeks or even months and told that they would be released only when a wanted relative surrenders to U.S. forces.

"We have many cases of Americans going to a house looking for someone, and when they can't find him, they take another family member in his place," said Bassem al-Rubaie, director of the Council of Legal Defense Care, a group of Iraqi lawyers that has been campaigning for prisoner rights. "This has been going on since the early days of the American occupation."

Arrested 'by mistake'

In a recent report, the International Committee of the Red Cross quoted military intelligence officers as saying that between "70 and 90 percent" of the nearly 8,000 Iraqis detained by occupation forces had been arrested "by mistake." In some cases, the report found, U.S. troops held people for several months after they had been cleared of wrongdoing.

Human rights groups first criticized the United States for detaining the relatives of wanted Iraqis in November, when U.S. forces arrested the wife and daughter of Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, one of Hussein's longtime deputies. After Hussein was captured last year, al-Douri became the most wanted man in Iraq, and Washington put a $10 million bounty on his head.

Al-Douri's wife and daughter are still in U.S. custody, although rights monitors say they have not been charged with any crime. "Taking hostages is a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions - in other words, a war crime," Manhattan-based Human Rights Watch wrote Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in January.

The senior U.S. military official declined to discuss the detention of al-Douri's relatives, saying it is a "special case with very unusual circumstances." In the past, U.S. officials had likened the detentions to those of a material witness who is held for questioning.

A form of 'moral coercion'

But rights monitors say there is no basis under international law for holding family members as material witnesses. "That explanation is dubious at best," said Alistair Hodgett, a spokesman for Amnesty International USA.

Detaining a fugitive's relatives is a form of "moral coercion" forbidden under the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, according to Quigley. The convention, which guarantees the rights of civilians under military occupation, also prohibits punishing someone for an offense that he has not personally committed.

In the 1970s and '80s, Washington frequently criticized the former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc countries for making arbitrary arrests and for using relatives to exert pressure on fugitives and political prisoners. In its latest report on human rights conditions around the world, the State Department singled out Uzbekistan, Pakistan and Syria for using such tactics.

By adopting similar methods in Iraq, experts say, Washington risks losing a moral high ground. "It makes it difficult for the U.S. to criticize other countries," Quigley said, "when it undertakes detentions of this sort that so clearly exceed what is permitted by law."

One family's nightmare

International law leaves little recourse for civilians under occupation to challenge wrongful detentions, something Moayad has become painfully aware of.

Her plight began on Jan. 30 at 2:30 a.m., when two U.S. Humvees pulled up to the door of her family's house as an Apache helicopter circled overhead. The soldiers asked for her father, Abdullah, 66, an American-educated geologist. Moayad insists that she does not know what U.S. forces wanted from her father.

Moayad told the soldiers that her father had gone to neighboring Jordan for prostate cancer surgery, and she showed them his medical records. They arrested the only other man in the house: Moayad's husband.

"My husband told them several times, 'I'm not a troublemaker, I just want to live in peace with my family,'" said Moayad, who was born in Austin, Texas, where her father was working. She lived in the United States until she was 5 years old.

Moayad has been married to Ibrahim, 45, for eight years. They have three children, ages 2 to 7. Like many Iraqis, they live with their extended family.

On Feb. 17, Moayad said, a group of soldiers delivered a handwritten letter from Ibrahim. It said he was being transferred from a U.S. base in Baghdad to Abu Ghraib prison "until the arrival of my father-in-law."

"Please tell him that I will be released when he arrives here, since I am not the wanted person..." Ibrahim wrote. "Please urge my father-in-law to surrender himself of his own free will. That will make things much easier for him. They will not mistreat someone who surrenders of his own free will. They only want to ask him some questions."

Since getting the letter, Moayad has made the 40-mile roundtrip journey from Baghdad to Abu Ghraib 18 times. On most visits, she has stood outside the gates with others waiting in vain for news about their relatives. One soldier who felt sorry for her looked up Ibrahim's name in the computer system and told her he was marked as a detainee with "intel value."

Reminders of Hussein

Moayad, whose patchwork English is the legacy of her Texas childhood, doesn't know what "intelligence value" means and how it might affect her husband. But the Red Cross report documented a pattern of abuses - including humiliation, hooding and threats of execution - against Iraqi prisoners deemed to have an intelligence value.

"The American soldiers kept on telling me, 'Bring your father, and you will get your husband back,'" said Moayad, her soft voice trailing off. "How can they say that he's not a hostage?"

On May 15, her 18th visit to Abu Ghraib, Moayad finally got to see her husband. Ibrahim told her he was being well treated, but he said that military officials had forced him to write the letter pleading for his father-in-law to surrender.

The tactic, Moayad said, reminded her of Hussein's regime. "The Americans promised us that they would bring democracy and freedom. They talked about the prisoners in Saddam's time, and we expected them to do something better," she said. "But now they're doing the same thing, or even worse."
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Ikkan
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PostPosted: 05/27/04 - 22:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, we're so evil. We have done everything wrong, and all of our 'war crimes' are so much worse than any other war crimes any other nations have ever commited.

Idiot.
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Maelstrom
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PostPosted: 05/27/04 - 22:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should try arresting their pets maybe it would work.


Yo mother f****r we hold your dog as a hostage, surrender or we will make naked pyramid with him and the other ones!
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Ikkan
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PostPosted: 05/27/04 - 22:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maelstrom wrote:
They should try arresting their pets maybe it would work.


Yo mother f****r we hold your dog as a hostage, surrender or we will make naked pyramid with him and the other ones!


Go die plz.
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Maelstrom
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PostPosted: 05/27/04 - 23:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikkan wrote:
Yup, we're so evil. We have done everything wrong, and all of our 'war crimes' are so much worse than any other war crimes any other nations have ever commited.

Idiot.


f*****g moron the US always claimed to fight for human rights, respect , freedom yet the more time they pass in Iraq the more the world can see how much of a joke the US are cause they only apply these rules when they can take advantage of them.
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sinrakin
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PostPosted: 05/27/04 - 23:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikkan wrote:
Yup, we're so evil. We have done everything wrong, and all of our 'war crimes' are so much worse than any other war crimes any other nations have ever commited.

Idiot.

I didn't say they're worse. We shouldn't be doing it at all. We can't be the good guys just because we say we're the good guys, we have to actually act like good guys.
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Confused
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 04:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

sinrakin wrote:
Ikkan wrote:
Yup, we're so evil. We have done everything wrong, and all of our 'war crimes' are so much worse than any other war crimes any other nations have ever commited.

Idiot.

I didn't say they're worse. We shouldn't be doing it at all. We can't be the good guys just because we say we're the good guys, we have to actually act like good guys.

The Geneva Convention itself says we're not beholden to it given the nature of this war.
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Gutrippar
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 06:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its grinding away. The world is starting to see the real picture behind the home of the free and "brave".

Tough luck. Sparring with *but without us europe would still be in german hands* is saying *without spain you would have never existed as well!*


More and more countries are considering withdrawing from iraq as a whole. More and more tax dollars are spend on a war that is even more desperate then vietnam was.

What is even better, is that the complete and utter indoctrination is not noticed by its own citizens, bar those that have learned to look at cases from another side.

Although that is beating a dead cow. What the worst thing is..



Think of how many of these cases that are never talked about. This is a simple leak.

Think about it.
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Paco
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 06:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no disgrace in what you posted, nor is it a crime. War and day to day life, laws, and expected behavior aren't the same at all. You cannot compare the actions you find to be so wrong, because here in the US, things are a set way. During war, there are alot of different laws and standards of conduct you should be aware of.

When you figure this out, maybe you'll rest easier at night.

And who gives a f**k if your feelings are hurt? I sure don't. If the information they get by using people as chips to get what they want, because it will save American lives, you better bet the farm I'll support that.

So, go have a complex and be miserable by yourself.
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Gutrippar
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 07:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paco wrote:
And who gives a f**k if your feelings are hurt? I sure don't. If the information they get by using people as chips to get what they want, because it will save American lives, you better bet the farm I'll support that.



This is exactly what the rest of the world is seeing.
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Paco
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 07:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gutrippar wrote:
Paco wrote:
And who gives a f**k if your feelings are hurt? I sure don't. If the information they get by using people as chips to get what they want, because it will save American lives, you better bet the farm I'll support that.



This is exactly what the rest of the world is seeing.


funny, I don't recall reading anywhere, or seeing anything to support your claim to represent the world, or what you said for that matter

Sure, some may think it, but not all, not even close.
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Gutrippar
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 07:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paco wrote:
Gutrippar wrote:
Paco wrote:
And who gives a f**k if your feelings are hurt? I sure don't. If the information they get by using people as chips to get what they want, because it will save American lives, you better bet the farm I'll support that.



This is exactly what the rest of the world is seeing.


funny, I don't recall reading anywhere, or seeing anything to support your claim to represent the world, or what you said for that matter

Sure, some may think it, but not all, not even close.


You dont recall reading it anywhere because all you see is CNN.
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Paco
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 07:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope. Try again. Smile

Your Great Carnack impression is lacking.

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Gutrippar
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 07:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to add some insult to injury.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IslamicNewsUpdates/message/4457

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/jamail.php?articleid=2563

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1215344,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1214671,00.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IslamicNewsUpdates/message/4426

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1212647,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/29/1083224523783.html




I could go on, and on, and on.
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Aviger
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 07:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yup, we're so evil. We have done everything wrong, and all of our 'war crimes' are so much worse than any other war crimes any other nations have ever commited.

Idiot.


Yeah, erm so to use a time old cliche "two wrongs dont make a right"
I think the idiot was an introspective statement after writing that line Razz

Quote:
And who gives a f**k if your feelings are hurt? I sure don't. If the information they get by using people as chips to get what they want, because it will save American lives, you better bet the farm I'll support that.


So what you are essentially saying is if Iraqi's feel that by flying planes into American buildings they are saving Iraqi lives (because as a result, they think, americans will withdraw from iraq etc) you'd be ok with it?
Since you just said the same thing in regards to protecting YOUR countrymen.

In other words, as long as the goal is to save lives you feel are important the means are open to interpretation.

Double standard? i think so...


Disclaimer : I am not for/against the war in whatever regard. War is the human way of life. There are no winners, there are no "Good reasons" to go to war period. IT's a s****y thing but it exists.
I also have no hate for americans, hell i love americans they funny as f**k people and i'm moving to LA.
What i cannot stand is ignorant, double standard hypocrisy some americans (and not JUST americans, any stupid human being) spew in regards to their holier then thou country and war.
I hate stupid people, and anyone who condones abuse of human rights for their cause but condems it for other peoples causes is a hypocritical moron.
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Celestra
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 07:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aviger wrote:
Quote:
Yup, we're so evil. We have done everything wrong, and all of our 'war crimes' are so much worse than any other war crimes any other nations have ever commited.

Idiot.


Yeah, erm so to use a time old cliche "two wrongs dont make a right"
I think the idiot was an introspective statement after writing that line Razz

Quote:
And who gives a f**k if your feelings are hurt? I sure don't. If the information they get by using people as chips to get what they want, because it will save American lives, you better bet the farm I'll support that.


So what you are essentially saying is if Iraqi's feel that by flying planes into American buildings they are saving Iraqi lives (because as a result, they think, americans will withdraw from iraq etc) you'd be ok with it?
Since you just said the same thing in regards to protecting YOUR countrymen.

In other words, as long as the goal is to save lives you feel are important the means are open to interpretation.

Double standard? i think so...


Disclaimer : I am not for/against the war in whatever regard. War is the human way of life. There are no winners, there are no "Good reasons" to go to war period. IT's a s****y thing but it exists.
I also have no hate for americans, hell i love americans they funny as f**k people and i'm moving to LA.
What i cannot stand is ignorant, double standard hypocrisy some americans (and not JUST americans, any stupid human being) spew in regards to their holier then thou country and war.
I hate stupid people, and anyone who condones abuse of human rights for their cause but condems it for other peoples causes is a hypocritical moron.



What he said.
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IceIsFun
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 08:25    Post subject: Re: More American war crimes Reply with quote

sinrakin wrote:
I'm getting sort of sick of all these crimes being committed essentialy in my name. I thought it was a mistake to go in, but I also thought having done that it would be a mistake to bail out. But if we can't stop disgracing ourselves we should just leave.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-woabus263819545may26,0,4004730.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines


When will you bleeding hearts realize this is the most humane war in recorded history? God forbid we hold people in an air-conditioned environment, giving them food and water. I mean for f**k's sake, it's not like we're napalm-ing villages of families in SouthEast Asian jungles or obliterating a large Japanese city with the most destructive force known to man. The reaction to the 9/11 attacks are so mild and p***y-fied compared to that of Pearl Harbor I can hardly believe we're the same nation. The question isn't why are we detaining people suspected of harboring terrorists (the actual reason family members are detained), the question is why did so many Americans lose the nerve to fight an affront to Western civilization?
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Paco
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 08:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Celestra wrote:
Aviger wrote:
Quote:
Yup, we're so evil. We have done everything wrong, and all of our 'war crimes' are so much worse than any other war crimes any other nations have ever commited.

Idiot.


Yeah, erm so to use a time old cliche "two wrongs dont make a right"
I think the idiot was an introspective statement after writing that line Razz

Quote:
And who gives a f**k if your feelings are hurt? I sure don't. If the information they get by using people as chips to get what they want, because it will save American lives, you better bet the farm I'll support that.


So what you are essentially saying is if Iraqi's feel that by flying planes into American buildings they are saving Iraqi lives (because as a result, they think, americans will withdraw from iraq etc) you'd be ok with it?
Since you just said the same thing in regards to protecting YOUR countrymen.

In other words, as long as the goal is to save lives you feel are important the means are open to interpretation.

Double standard? i think so...


Disclaimer : I am not for/against the war in whatever regard. War is the human way of life. There are no winners, there are no "Good reasons" to go to war period. IT's a s****y thing but it exists.
I also have no hate for americans, hell i love americans they funny as f**k people and i'm moving to LA.
What i cannot stand is ignorant, double standard hypocrisy some americans (and not JUST americans, any stupid human being) spew in regards to their holier then thou country and war.
I hate stupid people, and anyone who condones abuse of human rights for their cause but condems it for other peoples causes is a hypocritical moron.



What he said.


what the f**k? yay, two idiots for the price of one post! yay me!

Seriously..with your f****d up views, which by the way mean d**k here in the US, can't be this incredibly naieve. But lo..posted for all to see, it must be true, it's in print!

I'm sick of all you worthless, non-thinking f*****s who don't know how to argue a point. If you're going to sit at the big kid's table, at least converse like one. This b******t "logic" is flawed and lacking a total picture. Remember we didn't f*****g fly planes into their buildings. We reacted to an attack on American Soil.

Before the first Gulf War, how many Americans were in Iraq? Did we invade them out of the blue for no reason?

This is retorical. I've made my point.
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sinrakin
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 09:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realize that this is probably the most humane war in history. At least I think/hope it is, and I mostly believe it. I hope hindsight shows that to have been the case.

But stuff like this offends my sense of honor. I'm surprised when I see ex-military people like Paco defend it. I was always under the impression that armed services were very big on honor - is that just a myth? Certainly taking hostages, blackmailing people, abusing innocent people, beating civilians to death, torturing prisoners, can't be consistent with any sense of honor. Constantly trying to weasel out of the Geneva convention can't be honorable. I try to live my daily life in an honorable way, to whatever extent I can, and it pains me that grossly offensive abuses are commited on my behalf.

I guess honor could be considered somewhat dispensible under certain conditions, or at least you could argue that. But how about pragmatism? All the reports I read say the amount of information gained from torturing prisoners, at least in Iraq, was very minimal. Most studies say information gained from torture tends to be wrong. Certainly the reason we're losing in Iraq is because we've lost the population, because one way or another we've managed to s***w practically every citizen one way or another, by abusing him, or his friends, or his family. When we went in we weren't exactly welcomed with flowers, but at least we weren't hated. Now we are.

I think it's a failure of morale leadership, from the top. For all George Bush's platitudes, he has consistently shown that his actions will never be constrained by any sense of right and wrong, other than invoking the fact that since we have good intentions, anything we do must also be good. It's also sad that people don't think for themselves more, but it's a fact that they don't, so the conduct and attitude of the chief executive becomes adopted by the people, and by the armed forces.
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Paco
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 09:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please don't confuse my words with what actions I would take. I'm being realistic. Nobody plays by rules anymore. There will be reactions to any reactions.

Honor is different. How would I act now? What would I do were they under my command? I did not explain this, and for good reason. I was not there. I don't have the full picture, nor do I have the personal experience. Embarassing, yes. But do not judge me for the actions of another and call my Honor into the mix.

Unfortunately, I am not in a position to make policy or enforce it.
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IceIsFun
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 09:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

sinrakin wrote:
I realize that this is probably the most humane war in history. At least I think/hope it is, and I mostly believe it. I hope hindsight shows that to have been the case.

But stuff like this offends my sense of honor. I'm surprised when I see ex-military people like Paco defend it. I was always under the impression that armed services were very big on honor - is that just a myth? Certainly taking hostages, blackmailing people, abusing innocent people, beating civilians to death, torturing prisoners, can't be consistent with any sense of honor. Constantly trying to weasel out of the Geneva convention can't be honorable. I try to live my daily life in an honorable way, to whatever extent I can, and it pains me that grossly offensive abuses are commited on my behalf.

I guess honor could be considered somewhat dispensible under certain conditions, or at least you could argue that. But how about pragmatism? All the reports I read say the amount of information gained from torturing prisoners, at least in Iraq, was very minimal. Most studies say information gained from torture tends to be wrong. Certainly the reason we're losing in Iraq is because we've lost the population, because one way or another we've managed to s***w practically every citizen one way or another, by abusing him, or his friends, or his family. When we went in we weren't exactly welcomed with flowers, but at least we weren't hated. Now we are.

I think it's a failure of morale leadership, from the top. For all George Bush's platitudes, he has consistently shown that his actions will never be constrained by any sense of right and wrong, other than invoking the fact that since we have good intentions, anything we do must also be good. It's also sad that people don't think for themselves more, but it's a fact that they don't, so the conduct and attitude of the chief executive becomes adopted by the people, and by the armed forces.


Where is the honor or journalistic integrity of reporters who take facts and spin them for political purposes? Where is the honor in slitting the throats of airline pilots with a box-cutter and demolishing a fully-populated World Trade Center? Where is the honor in strapping explosives to a 16-yo kid and walking him to a military installation? The days of two armies marching at each other in a field are long gone. We are fighting an enemy with such a radically different mindset that conventional tactics simply do not work.

I could give a flying f**k about Kerry or Bush or who's in the White House next year. However, the fresh-spun news that so many of you lemmings believe is nothing but an attempt by corporate-America to get their newest champion into the White House. I'm not about to claim Bush is some saint or that his cabinet hasn't done things that would offend the senses of even the most staunch supporters of the war. But if you think this is the first administration to hand down questionable directives in the name of democracy, you're living in a dream-world.
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Silentstormwing
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PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 09:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gutrippar wrote:
Just to add some insult to injury.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IslamicNewsUpdates/message/4457

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/jamail.php?articleid=2563

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1215344,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1214671,00.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IslamicNewsUpdates/message/4426

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1212647,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/29/1083224523783.html


I could go on, and on, and on.


HAHAHA OMG, get a grip Gutrippar. You lost all credibility with these links the moment you started posting links from The Guardian, that bastion of journalistic excellence.

Thank you come again.

Seriously though, this shit has only been hashed and rehashed out fifty f*****g million times and you know what, the views and the people who hold them rarely if ever change and I don't think any of us on both sides of this argument are exactly going to change our minds by reading stuff like this.


Last edited by Silentstormwing on 05/28/04 - 09:28; edited 1 time in total
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Celestra
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 6929



PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 09:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paco wrote:


what the f**k? yay, two idiots for the price of one post! yay me!

Seriously..with your f****d up views, which by the way mean d**k here in the US, can't be this incredibly naieve. But lo..posted for all to see, it must be true, it's in print!

I'm sick of all you worthless, non-thinking f*****s who don't know how to argue a point. If you're going to sit at the big kid's table, at least converse like one. This b******t "logic" is flawed and lacking a total picture. Remember we didn't f*****g fly planes into their buildings. We reacted to an attack on American Soil.

Before the first Gulf War, how many Americans were in Iraq? Did we invade them out of the blue for no reason?

This is retorical. I've made my point.



Just because it's a reaction doesn't mean you have to stoop to the level of the crime you are reacting to. Nor does it mean that a reaction should be devoid of any kind of morality. Especially when the American government judges other nations on theirs. It just doesn't fly for Americans to condemn certain policies that are considered violations of human rights from other countries then turn around and do similar things themselves in Iraq. The argument against that doesn't even have to touch upon the Geneva convention, or whether or not it applies (which is btw the dumbest argument I ever heard), it touches on what Americans stand for and what that's worth when Americans themselves don't act like they believe in what they stand for.

I see the big picture. I think what America is trying to do in Iraq is a good thing for most of the Iraqi people and the rest of the world. However I do think that the end doesn't justify these means. Especially when those means undermine your credibility in a great portion of your own countrymen and women, and in large parts of the rest of the world.
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Paco
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Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 12939
Location: Jacksonville, FL



PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 10:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Celestra wrote:
blah blah blah


I see your reply as: America is only an "infant" compared to the rest of the world and shouldn't be making policy for the world. 'insert your country here' has been around for centuries and we don't even do that.

Does that p**s you off? Is that what you mean? Maybe deep down, you resent the US like that. Seems to be a fairly popular topic around the world.
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Frax
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers



PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 10:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet.

oh, and quoting the Guardian is like quoting the Onion. It has about as much journalistic integrity as my dog.
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Celestra
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RealPoor Master of Posts


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 6929



PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 10:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paco wrote:
Celestra wrote:
blah blah blah


I see your reply as: America is only an "infant" compared to the rest of the world and shouldn't be making policy for the world. 'insert your country here' has been around for centuries and we don't even do that.

Does that p**s you off? Is that what you mean? Maybe deep down, you resent the US like that. Seems to be a fairly popular topic around the world.


I'm not judging America by anything other than their own standards. That's the whole point.

There are surprisingly few things that p**s me off these days. Your country, the war in Iraq, or you, Paco, don't even stand a chance of making me care enough to p**s me off. So don't worry, have a pint and a smile and stfu. Wink
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Silentstormwing
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Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 42



PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 11:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frax wrote:

oh, and quoting the Guardian is like quoting the Onion. It has about as much journalistic integrity as my dog.


That sir, is the best analogy I've heard this week. Props to you!
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Tolanin
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Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3551



PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 11:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only people who think there is honor in war are people who never fought in one. This whole PC mentality is f*****g us over again, we dont remember what it was like to fight a real war against real fanatical enemies who are willing to bring the fight to us.. people see the great victories in wwii through rose colored glasses, all pussified by the PC people, oh no we didnt do anything wrong we respected our enemies then why dont we now! f*****g BS learn what actually happens and try to understand how f*****g nice we are being right now to the iraqis. American Officers in WWII went on record saying they didnt believe the japs were human and they were more like animals... wow that offends my sense of honor lets send a bunch of 60 year olds to trial!!11

Honestly you people are so f*****g stupid, maybe if you realized that war isnt a nice PC thing you want to make it out to be it would be easier, you have honor yay whats your honor from? You work in a dead end job maybe? maybe you have alot of money? Maybe you go to church and give blood? well f**k you, that doesnt make you an honorable person, your honor doesnt matter, you live in a nice little glass house and throw rocks at people whose honor is tested and most of the time they come out good, but you sit there thinkin your honor is so much better because its untarnished by anything, well f**k you cause you also never had to face death or say to yourself 'hey i could do this and save people or do this and keep my sense of honor'. Honor isnt something you earn by believing in ideals you never had to stick up for or fight and risk your life to keep.
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Paco
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Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 12939
Location: Jacksonville, FL



PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 11:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Celestra wrote:
Paco wrote:
Celestra wrote:
blah blah blah


I see your reply as: America is only an "infant" compared to the rest of the world and shouldn't be making policy for the world. 'insert your country here' has been around for centuries and we don't even do that.

Does that p**s you off? Is that what you mean? Maybe deep down, you resent the US like that. Seems to be a fairly popular topic around the world.


I'm not judging America by anything other than their own standards. That's the whole point.

There are surprisingly few things that p**s me off these days. Your country, the war in Iraq, or you, Paco, don't even stand a chance of making me care enough to p**s me off. So don't worry, have a pint and a smile and stfu. Wink


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Maelstrom
RealPoor Guru
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 4072
Location: Montréal



PostPosted: 05/28/04 - 11:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

See no matter what the US will do, there will always be a huge number of moron defending the actions of that f****d up nation.

slowly but surely the US is getting from the perfect country that every other wanted to look like to the shit hole of the world and the worse treat for peace in the entire world.

Soon or later they will crumble there are way too many poor people on this damn planet and 1 day they will come and get their part of the cake. You cant f**k with billions of people and hope to get away with it all the time.

Americans claim to fight religion fanatics...but they are becoming much worse...they are becoming politic/cultural fanatics.
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