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Yellow Journalist
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 1973
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 Posted: 12/21/04 - 01:20 Post subject: Minimum Wage
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Needs to be raised.
I was thinking .... why cant there be a Maximum wage also.... If you make more then the Maximum wage then your wages get taxed. If you make between minimum and maximum you are tax free.
I was reading somewhere that Bush wants to make it harder for your normal working class person to sue big companies..... Its like hes once again trying to create a gap between middle class and upper class (the rich) . I think its stupid that its sort of like that in Politics. You have to be wealthy to run for President and get in office... its true.
Thoughts pls.
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flikker
Luke Warm
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 199
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 01:25 Post subject: Re: Minimum Wage
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| Yellow Journalist wrote: | Needs to be raised.
I was thinking .... why cant there be a Maximum wage also.... If you make more then the Maximum wage then your wages get taxed. If you make between minimum and maximum you are tax free.
I was reading somewhere that Bush wants to make it harder for your normal working class person to sue big companies..... Its like hes once again trying to create a gap between middle class and upper class (the rich) . I think its stupid that its sort of like that in Politics. You have to be wealthy to run for President and get in office... its true.
Thoughts pls. |
Even better we could become a socialist or even a communist society 
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 02:33 Post subject: Re: Minimum Wage
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| Yellow Journalist wrote: | If you make between minimum and maximum you are tax free.
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Yep, that's exactly what the US needs - less income from taxes.
Best thing to do would be raise taxes for the next 4 years slightly, because it's become apparent the government can't cut spending significantly. (like that's going to happen tho...)
An interesting excerpt from an article on the economist:
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UNLIKE most of George Bush’s White House team, for whom economics is a slave to politics, Gregory Mankiw, head of the White House’s Council of Economic Advisers, labours hard to square the president’s economic policies with sound economic theory. “When I wrote my first economics textbook,” he said in a speech earlier this month, “I told students to keep an eye on three indicators of economic performance: gross domestic product, inflation and the unemployment rate.” By these standards, he pointed out, the American economy is doing admirably.
But Mr Mankiw’s better students know that high growth and low inflation—what economists used to call “internal balance”—are not the be all and end all of macroeconomics. Later chapters of their textbooks introduce them to “external balance”, telling them also to keep an eye on the economy’s balance of payments with the rest of the world. By this standard, America’s economy has a real problem. According to figures released shortly before the Fed’s interest-rate decision, America’s trade deficit rose to a new record of $55.5 billion in October. A day later, the Treasury revealed that America attracted only $48.1 billion of net foreign capital to help finance that deficit. This was not because foreigners had given up on dollar assets, but because American capital has momentarily fled overseas: Americans added a net $12 billion of foreign shares to their portfolios in October, and a net $3.2 billion of foreign bonds.
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Fedmahn
Total Newbie
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 26
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 09:34 Post subject:
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| Quote: | | [Minimum wage] Needs to be raised. |
I am curious, have you ever taken a basic micro-economics course? I will freely admit I have only taken a basic micro course (and a macro course, but I didn't retain anything from that course), but one of the things I retained from it was that the professor spent some time talking about the serious economic problems a minimum wage causes. The following article does a better job explaining the effects of minimum wage than I could.
http://www.fee.org/vnews.php?nid=6325
| Quote: | Of all the economic myths my students bring to the first day of class, perhaps the most prevalent is that the minimum wage is desirable because, without it, employers would pay substandard wages.
My new students—by and large the products of public education—have not yet had the benefit of being taught to think economically. If they had any economics education at all in high school, it involved being bombarded with graphs, charts, and curves, the meaning of which they never really were taught, perhaps because their teachers had never been taught either.
There is perhaps nothing more rewarding than to see the light bulb illuminate as students learn to think economically, and, in doing so, learn to dispel for themselves the economic myths they have been fed over the previous 12 years of their education. The first step in this process is to teach them the laws of supply and demand, and how these laws interact to determine market-clearing, or “equilibrium,” prices. This lesson serves well to enable my students to dispel the minimum-wage myth, since, after all, wages are nothing more than prices, that is, the prices for labor. Just as one might pay $20 for a DVD, $25 for a haircut, or $50 for a one-hour massage, one might also pay $6 for an hour of floor sweeping, $10 for an hour of construction work, or $40 for a one-hour lecture on macroeconomics.
Once my students have established that wages are merely prices, they are able to apply their lessons in supply and demand to conceptualize the market-clearing price; that is, the price at which the quantity supplied and quantity demanded are equal. They also learn that determining and abiding by the market-clearing price of labor, as opposed to arbitrarily guessing what this price would be and codifying it in a minimum wage, would lead to the much-sought-after economic goal of full employment. This is a lesson that, unfortunately, most of our politicians have not yet learned.
The law of supply tells us that as prices rise, other things equal, the quantity supplied also rises, and as prices fall, the quantity supplied falls. Applying this law to employment and wages, and using the example of construction workers, we see that as the wages of construction workers increase, the supply will increase—that is, there will be more people willing to perform construction work. As the wages of construction workers decrease, there will be fewer people willing to perform construction work. As with most economic lessons, this one is fairly intuitive.
Next, the equally intuitive law of demand tells us that as prices rise, again other things equal, the quantity demanded falls, and as prices fall, the quantity demanded rises. Here we see that as construction wages rise, there will be less of a demand for construction labor (i.e., fewer construction jobs) since construction firms will be willing and able to hire fewer workers. As construction wages fall, there will be more of a demand for construction labor (i.e., more construction jobs) since construction firms will now be willing and able to hire more workers.
Bringing together the laws of supply and demand, we can see how hiring decisions and the willingness of workers to perform work at a certain wage interact to determine the appropriate wages for, in our case, construction workers. This relationship, of course, applies not only to construction workers but to all forms of labor in a free market. Where supply and demand intersect, we obtain the market-clearing, or “equilibrium,” price (or wage). At that level, there is no shortage or surplus of workers.
Legislated Wage
But let us now consider what happens if we refuse to let market forces determine the price for construction labor. Suppose, instead, that the government arbitrarily sets a minimum wage above the market-clearing price. More workers will seek jobs than employers are willing to hire. The result is a surplus of workers, which we call unemployment. This is the typical result of minimum-wage laws that set wages above the market level.
Suppose that our worst fears are realized and the construction firm decides to set wages below the market level. Now fewer workers are willing to work at this wage than the firm wishes to hire. If the construction firm is to meet its demand for labor, the message is clear: it must raise its wages. If the firm fails to raise wages, it will experience a drastic shortage of labor and will likely go out of business.
The lessons we learn from applying the laws of supply and demand to the minimum-wage issue are (1) the minimum wage is damaging to the economy because any wage set above the market-clearing level will cause unemployment, and (2) the minimum wage is unnecessary because if a firm decides to pay wages lower than the market-clearing level, it will experience a shortage of workers, leaving no other choice but to raise wages.
As is typically the case, when our politicians discard the basic laws of economics and instead seek to play the role of central economic planners, their actions are both unnecessary and unwise. |
Do you still think minimum wage should be increased?
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Brael
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2122
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 09:55 Post subject: Re: Minimum Wage
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| Yellow Journalist wrote: | | You have to be wealthy to run for President and get in office... its true. |
No you don't. It's simply that the people who can make good canidates will have already done enough to earn themselves the money/contributions to run.
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 11:30 Post subject:
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That was one of the worst articles I've ever read - someone like that shouldn't make fun of public education. (or teach others for that matter)
The employment market doesn't have an unlimited supply or demand - it's not a question of gauging the price right. (I'm not saying supply/demand doesn't have an effect - it does - but definatly not as much as he implies)
ie if I could hire one worker for $200, or 2 workers for $100 each I would hire one worker for $100. Just because it's cheaper doesn't mean I need more to get the job done.
The problem you now have is that the guy you hired for $100 would still be eligeable for welfare, thus the taxpayer actually pays those $100 you saved. (made up numbers, but you get the idea)
| Quote: | | Suppose that our worst fears are realized and the construction firm decides to set wages below the market level. Now fewer workers are willing to work at this wage than the firm wishes to hire. If the construction firm is to meet its demand for labor, the message is clear: it must raise its wages. |
That's very simplified - they could also just pay the fine for completing the project late, which will probably still be cheaper than hiring more people and raising the saleries for all of them. Not that finding cheap labor is a problem - just means more mexican and less american employees. After all working at a wage that barely gets you by is still better than not getting by.
Worst case you still have taxpayers who'll support you, which is mostly payed by other employees and not those making money of employing people at super-low wages.
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Yellow Journalist
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 1973
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 12:14 Post subject:
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one of the things I retained from it was that the professor spent some time talking about the serious economic problems a minimum wage causes.
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Inflation goes up.... minimum wage stays the same.....
that is a problem , cost of livng , housing, gas prices ... they naturally go up.
Im not a big supporter of Bush... the economy takes a dive when a republican takes office. Republican presidents usually have unwarranted military spending. They manipulate our tax dollars to fund their party and "keep the peace". Its evident that Bush could give two s***s less about outsourcing jobs... it shows in his speech's. The only time you see Bush scrambling to face the issues/ social / economic issues is during re election. I think the war in Iraq was handled at the best of Bush's ablility .... as far as handling homeland issues... Mr Bush.... you suck. (Yes I consider outside threats as homelnd issues) *closes loophole*
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Fabulez
Luke Warm
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 437
Location: up in here
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 13:46 Post subject:
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The minimum wage was invented by pinko commies.
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Frostkiss
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 2018
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 16:16 Post subject: Re: Minimum Wage
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| Yellow Journalist wrote: | I was reading somewhere that Bush wants to make it harder for your normal working class person to sue big companies..... Its like hes once again trying to create a gap between middle class and upper class (the rich) . I think its stupid that its sort of like that in Politics. You have to be wealthy to run for President and get in office... its true.
Thoughts pls. |
My thought ... Bush IS a corporation. He's creating the perfect climate for it. Look at the contracts that have been signed, the money that has been made, the CEO's that financed his entire campaign, and who's benefitting big time in the last 4 years.
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 16:37 Post subject: Re: Minimum Wage
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| Yellow Journalist wrote: |
Its like hes once again trying to create a gap between middle class and upper class (the rich) . |
Once again? That gap has been there since the beginning of time, and it never closed. What makes you think there's no gap now?
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You have to be wealthy to run for President and get in office... its true. |
I'd say you have to be well connected to run for President - although that is, in most cases, the same thing. Who's going to vote for some random guy from Kentucky no one ever heard of? Right.
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motherface
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 12 Mar 2003
Posts: 3407
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 18:57 Post subject:
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If you're an employer who has a budget of $500 per day to pay your employees, and the minimum wage is $5.00/hour, you can employ 12 people to work for you (assuming an 8 hour work day, 12 x 8 x 5 = $480 per day). If you raise the minimum wage to $7.00, you can now afford to employ 8 people (8 x 8 x 7 = $448/day).
Yeah, those 8 people are making a "living wage" but the other 4 are making nothing. Bottom line is if you raise the minimum wage, you will put people out of work. This isn't exactly rocket science.
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 19:42 Post subject:
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I'm not saying no one would lose their job - some would - but there are many factors that affect a company's employment decision, so a minimum wage may not have any impact.
(short quote from an older economist article)
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Critics of minimum wages frequently argue that a government-mandated pay level reduces total employment, because firms will scale back hiring rather than adding employees who must be paid more than they are worth. The study finds little evidence of this as far as adults are concerned: so many factors affect firms’ employment decisions that the OECD’s economists cannot separate the impact, if any, of a minimum wage.
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Imo the two advantages of MW are worth it though:
1. stop unfair and explotative employment
2. takes all employed people off welfare, reducing the costs for the taxpayer
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Brael
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2122
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 21:52 Post subject:
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Min wage should be high enough to put you just out of poverty working 40 hours/week at that wage assuming a single person with no kids, I think (say 10% higher than poverty threshhold). In the case of the US that would be $10,530/year ($877.50/month, $219.38/week, 43.88/day, $5.48/hour). Thats slightly higher than the current min wage of $5.15/hour although states should have the ability to raise it further everywhere or in just certain areas if they feel necessary due to cost of living ($5.48 goes alot further in bumfuck West Virginia than LA).
Anyways theres my completly uninformed feelings on it.
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 12/21/04 - 21:58 Post subject:
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Switzerland's minimum wage is about $30k/year, and businesses still manage to make a nice profit while not laying off their entire work force - somehow I don't think $10k/year would mean the end of american companies...
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Fabulez
Luke Warm
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 437
Location: up in here
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 12/22/04 - 04:51 Post subject:
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You have to be either a high school student, or a complete moron to be making minimum wage.
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Yellow Journalist
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 1973
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Posted: 12/22/04 - 08:57 Post subject:
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| Quote: | | cost of living ($5.48 goes alot further in bumfuck West Virginia than LA). |
Very true... Cost of living in California is very high. My family owns a buisness in Ca, two homes....and a horse ranch.. You wouldnt believe the tax's we pay to live here... its absurd. Ive considered getting into real estate... realators make tons of money. Property value here goes up fast.
Last edited by Yellow Journalist on 12/22/04 - 19:12; edited 1 time in total
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kbarr
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 11239
Location: New York, now go fuck off...
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Posted: 12/22/04 - 18:22 Post subject:
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| Confused wrote: | | You have to be either a high school student, or a complete moron to be making minimum wage. |
Or both.
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ATM Banana
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 8575
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Posted: 12/23/04 - 06:16 Post subject:
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minimum wage is more than many people need.
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Yellow Journalist
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 1973
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Posted: 12/23/04 - 09:54 Post subject:
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| Quote: | | minimum wage is more than many people need. |
Not if you want to get somewhere in life.
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 12/23/04 - 13:48 Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Not if you want to get somewhere in life. |
You missed the entire point. People do not support families on minimum wage. Most people do not stay at minimum wage. Yes a small percentage of people do support families working 2 jobs at or near minimum wage, but that is not the norm. There are a few groups of people who comprise most of the minimum wage earners:
- kids who earn spending money or help pay for school
- seniors who supplement their retirement income
- unskilled people who basically apprentice at minimum wage while they learn skills that will allow them to make more money in the future
- illegals who pay no taxes and live 5 in a room and can live on that much money, and still save enough to send back to their 3rd world families
More plentiful jobs at lower wages allow these types of people to earn some extra money, or break into the workforce and learn some skills - something they would not be as able to do if the wage were raised, because less of these jobs would exist.
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Yellow Journalist
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 1973
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Posted: 12/23/04 - 14:55 Post subject:
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Yes Vekril there is a reason why there is a minimum wage and you spelled it out. You are correct
MY POINT WAS <------- (read it again)
If you want to settle for minimum wage earnings.... dont expect to get very far financially and that was in response to
-------> | Quote: | | minimum wage is more than many people need. |
Which I think is untrue.... More than many people need?
Many need
earnings that keep up with inflation.... the whole point of this thread .
Say I make 2 dollars each week. And the cost of cookies is is 98 cents .
ok thats fine......
War breaks out... we get an idiot for a president.... outsourcing happens... the job market blows... The cookie monster is on the loose... Cookie companys cant keep up with the demand of cookies, So guess what.... INFLATION on cookies hits OMFG and guess what? ..... go ahead ask
Vekril says, "What ?"
YJ says," Cookie prices skyrocket" !!
So guess what?? Those cookies now cost 1.78 and I only make 2 bucks a week so that kinda sucks doesnt it? For shame I cant even buy any milk to down them with .
There, I fed you my point.
want a cookie?
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Ikkan
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 3086
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Posted: 12/30/04 - 20:25 Post subject:
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Raising minimum wage is such a stupid idea. Yes, let's raise minimum wage so that a 16 year old kid can buy another video game at the sacrifice of two other people losing their jobs. BRILLIANT!
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quotison
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 1594
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Posted: 12/30/04 - 20:53 Post subject:
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| Ikkan wrote: | | Raising minimum wage is such a stupid idea. Yes, let's raise minimum wage so that a 16 year old kid can buy another video game at the sacrifice of two other people losing their jobs. BRILLIANT! |
Are you trying to say that raising the minimum wage would cause the continued employment of each person at the new minimum wage to lead to two people having to be laid off? I don't think anyone proposed the minimum wage be increased to 25 dollars an hour.
The 'minimum wage leads to job losses' argument doesn't work for me. If we raise the minimum wage for 100 people, and 99 of them stay employed, I think we, as the richest country in the world, can deal with the 1 person that became unemployed. I believe the other 99 being able to support their families better has positive impacts on society. If only 33 stay employed, like in your example, then the minimum wage is not worth it. I suspect the number that would stay employed is neither 99 nor 33.
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motherface
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 12 Mar 2003
Posts: 3407
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Posted: 12/31/04 - 02:44 Post subject:
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Dude, let's raise minimum wage. To compensate for the lack of money that will be available to pay people, we just print more money.
Problem solved!
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Ikkan
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 3086
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Posted: 01/01/05 - 01:42 Post subject:
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| quotison wrote: | | Ikkan wrote: | | Raising minimum wage is such a stupid idea. Yes, let's raise minimum wage so that a 16 year old kid can buy another video game at the sacrifice of two other people losing their jobs. BRILLIANT! |
Are you trying to say that raising the minimum wage would cause the continued employment of each person at the new minimum wage to lead to two people having to be laid off? I don't think anyone proposed the minimum wage be increased to 25 dollars an hour.
The 'minimum wage leads to job losses' argument doesn't work for me. If we raise the minimum wage for 100 people, and 99 of them stay employed, I think we, as the richest country in the world, can deal with the 1 person that became unemployed. I believe the other 99 being able to support their families better has positive impacts on society. If only 33 stay employed, like in your example, then the minimum wage is not worth it. I suspect the number that would stay employed is neither 99 nor 33. |
Minimum wage here is $5.15 an hour, let's say we raise it to $7.00 an hour, so that's a $1.85 Raise per hour. Now let's say a company employs 100 people at $5.15 an hour, that's $515 an hour, now if it is raised to $7.00 an hour, the only way to stay at paying $515 an hour is to only employ 74 People, that means that 26% of all people working at minimum wage would lose their jobs, which is a lot more than 1 out of 100. So how does that argument not work for you? It's completely logical and backed up with simple math.
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Qienn
Luke Warm
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 182
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Guest
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Posted: 01/01/05 - 19:05 Post subject:
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ROFL
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Yellow Journalist
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 1973
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Posted: 01/01/05 - 20:59 Post subject:
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lol nice article
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Qaldyin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1346
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Posted: 01/01/05 - 22:43 Post subject:
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Greenspan's excess printing of money is the exact reason why the dollar is shit right now...
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