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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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 Posted: 07/12/05 - 20:50 Post subject: MMO related: I hate instances. Do you?
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Instances = anti social
Instances = no grief = no drama = NO FUN
Instances = uncontrollable influx of "rare" items
Instances = farmer's paradise
Instances = bugs-R-us
You remember Guk and Sol A/B because they were hard, scary and full of human conflict.
If you disagree please tell me why, otherwise I will assume you are Maldek / Maelstrom.
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Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 20:55 Post subject:
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Love them..
Group play rules and dont have to worry about asses in the game getting thier jollies off ruining others fun..
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kireol
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 02 Aug 2003
Posts: 9517
Location: Royal Oak, MI
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 20:57 Post subject:
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must have both. wow is really missing the guk,sol A/B, etc approach. But when those zones are full or you cant get a group, EQ is reduced to an instant messenger and you soon quit
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Xenden
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 1532
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 20:59 Post subject:
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I think a balance of both is neccessary.
The conflict needs to be there some of the time, but not to the point where it drives people away.
Reward those who are more willing to take up the challenge of guk/sol b style encounters with better loot/whatever.
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goatface
Sir Postalot
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 1354
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 21:01 Post subject:
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like them, as i can play and play and not have to worry about jerks
don't like them, as in the 2 games i played with them, you can get to lvl cap and only know like 5-10 people on the server
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That Lumberg Guy
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 3790
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 21:15 Post subject:
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I like the days of AoW and Ssra Raids, but it caused more stress than fun most of the times.
I also enjoy doing incredibly sophisticated encounters without having to worry about some 13 year old f*****g it all up.
I enjoy a little of both.
As far as instances being anti social? No.
You can socialize with your guildmates or raid party. The only socializing going on 90% of the time in a non-instanced raid zone is negative. You, Occulis, were always prone to drama so you have to see it from another stand point. Grief is not fun.
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 21:33 Post subject:
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You're right about the love/hate. Making instances of lesser worth gets them treated like LDoN in EQ: Casual gamers rejoice about them, hardcore raiders completely ignore them.
However they still are cash cows, unstoppable money fountains, full of exploits, and the exact same experience over and over and over. I have no reason to re-visit Wailing Caverns, not even to drop in and help groups out for no reason.
I have absolutely no reason to depend on anyone or learn anyone's name as long as instances are around. Reputation really means nothing when there are an unlimited number of Lady Vox's to be slain.
It's a canned experience and it will be the same every time, day in, day out, until patches change it. You can have absolutely no effect on that world. You're drizzling your time into your Stamina rating, or your Armor Class.
How many 550-page flame wars about instances can there be?
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sinrakin
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 7044
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 21:37 Post subject:
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That's sort of like saying that you really remember the people who stayed up with you till 6 AM when you'd only planned to play till midnight, and endured multiple deaths to help you recover your corpse from a hard dungeon so you wouldn't lose everything you owned. You do, and those were great experiences, but I don't really want to go back to them.
The "vision" was harsh.
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Xieroth
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 1902
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 21:40 Post subject:
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Instances are awesome. I don't want to spend 1000000 hours playing a f*****g video game anymore.
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 21:40 Post subject:
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There's a reason I can buy 1000 gold in WoW for $100.
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kireol
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 02 Aug 2003
Posts: 9517
Location: Royal Oak, MI
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 22:17 Post subject:
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| Occulis wrote: | | There's a reason I can buy 1000 gold in WoW for $100. |
asians.
~.~
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Alarach
Banned
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 597
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 22:19 Post subject:
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I have much hate for instances.
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 22:21 Post subject:
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You and me seem to be the only ones, Lally. Mine is almost purely from an economic and canned-ham standpoint. Wailing Caverns isn't scary. In fact, I don't think there's a scary part in WoW, period, is there?
Veeshan's Peak. That was scary.
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kireol
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 02 Aug 2003
Posts: 9517
Location: Royal Oak, MI
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 22:22 Post subject:
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| Occulis wrote: | You and me seem to be the only ones, Lally. Mine is almost purely from an economic and canned-ham standpoint. Wailing Caverns isn't scary. In fact, I don't think there's a scary part in WoW, period, is there?
Veeshan's Peak. That was scary. |
that's due to death penalty and having to regrind out 69 hours for 1 bubble of exp because you died 4000 times getting your corpse back
wow has no DP
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 22:24 Post subject:
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WoW has no death penalty and no punishment for being a fuckup. It also has no reason to give a shit if anyone you group with is any good. They ruined your experience? Oh well! At least you didn't actually have to depend on them for anything!
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 22:31 Post subject:
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death penalty should hurt
make it hurt bad
then - even for instances - you wont group with random idiots: for fear of them f*****g the dog and making you eat whatever evil death penalty there is.
in this environment you go with trusted friends, people you know and trust.
also - it wouldnt be hard to change the scripting in an instance for differing levels - same map but different challenge level (mobs) (sequence events) (ambushes) (some doors locked that were opened)
that way devs could reuse the map - tweak it a little - repopulate it and itemize and you have new encounter.
this could be tied to story as well - orcs move out, kobalds move in etc etc
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Maldek
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 2089
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 22:47 Post subject:
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| Occulis wrote: | | Reputation really means nothing when there are an unlimited number of Lady Vox's to be slain. |
100% inaccurate. and i speak from 1st hand expeiriences.
Reputation, both guild and individual, are still very important and always will be in a game that is about community and the building of an online one. With or without instances, a player's name and reputation are still an important commodity to preserve.
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 22:50 Post subject:
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| Maldek wrote: | | Occulis wrote: | | Reputation really means nothing when there are an unlimited number of Lady Vox's to be slain. |
100% inaccurate. and i speak from 1st hand expeiriences.
Reputation, both guild and individual, are still very important and always will be in a game that is about community and the building of an online one. With or without instances, a player's name and reputation are still an important commodity to preserve. |
Examples please
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euphonious
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 893
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 22:51 Post subject:
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| Occulis wrote: | | Maldek wrote: | | Occulis wrote: | | Reputation really means nothing when there are an unlimited number of Lady Vox's to be slain. |
100% inaccurate. and i speak from 1st hand expeiriences.
Reputation, both guild and individual, are still very important and always will be in a game that is about community and the building of an online one. With or without instances, a player's name and reputation are still an important commodity to preserve. |
Examples please |
Venecia.
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kireol
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 02 Aug 2003
Posts: 9517
Location: Royal Oak, MI
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 22:51 Post subject:
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rep in WOW means less because it was so easy to level, you could replace any class in a heartbeat because there are 2983749238748 lvl 60s. you know you'll never see ppl again so you dont take the time to care.
In EQ, those that did grind through all knew (and still mostly do) eachother. All teh ubers still hang/talk, all the friendship guilds same and so on and so on. The grind sucked so bad, and there wa so little known about the genre and game that it took a long time to reach the end levels and zones.
Once you did reach the end goal, it was farm time.
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motherface
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 12 Mar 2003
Posts: 3407
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 22:59 Post subject: Re: MMO related: I hate instances. Do you?
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| Occulis wrote: | Instances = anti social
Instances = no grief = no drama = NO FUN
Instances = uncontrollable influx of "rare" items
Instances = farmer's paradise
Instances = bugs-R-us
You remember Guk and Sol A/B because they were hard, scary and full of human conflict.
If you disagree please tell me why, otherwise I will assume you are Maldek / Maelstrom. |
I don't think instances are inherently bad. They prevent the training drama and allow people to play the game at their own pace rather than at the pace set by the spawn timer. Training is a lame form of PVP which generally doesn't allow retaliation, especially if it's a level 1 alt that's doing the training, or just some j*****s who doesn't care.
One major problem with instances is the idea of "saving" one's progress. Personally I think that should be removed completely and instances should just be reduced to more granular chunks. There should never be a 4 hour instance, or a 4-hour raid for that matter. If there's a long or "epic" encounter the developers want to create, it should be made in chunks of no more than 1 hour each. That would mostly eliminate the "saving" feature. To allow a raid to progress from one segment to the next, each member of the raid could be given a key that exists for 7 or 14 days, which gives them access to the next instance. As much as I hate the notion of "gimping," it may be worth it to allow a 90/10 gimp rule or something along those lines.
Also keys should never be physical items. You should never be able to destroy a key, and the key should never take up a slot in your inventory. As soon as you gain access to the new area the bit should be flipped in the database forever and ever amen.
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Paco
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 12939
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: 07/12/05 - 23:38 Post subject:
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| Occulis wrote: | | Maldek wrote: | | Occulis wrote: | | Reputation really means nothing when there are an unlimited number of Lady Vox's to be slain. |
100% inaccurate. and i speak from 1st hand expeiriences.
Reputation, both guild and individual, are still very important and always will be in a game that is about community and the building of an online one. With or without instances, a player's name and reputation are still an important commodity to preserve. |
Examples please |
Whitetiger.
Do I win the prize?
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/13/05 - 00:08 Post subject:
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| Paco wrote: | | Occulis wrote: | | Maldek wrote: | | Occulis wrote: | | Reputation really means nothing when there are an unlimited number of Lady Vox's to be slain. |
100% inaccurate. and i speak from 1st hand expeiriences.
Reputation, both guild and individual, are still very important and always will be in a game that is about community and the building of an online one. With or without instances, a player's name and reputation are still an important commodity to preserve. |
Examples please |
Whitetiger.
Do I win the prize? |
Don't know who he is, sorry! Did he do something memorable? The only memorable characters in WoW are Leroy Jenkins. There will never be a Fansy in WoW or EQ2.
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Maldek
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 2089
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Posted: 07/13/05 - 00:44 Post subject:
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| Occulis wrote: | | There will never be a Fansy in WoW or EQ2. |
EQ2 R.I.P. Patches
http://patches.shakataganai.com/
Please note this story takes place entirely within player-owned housing.
Link summary: in EQ2 beta some chick bought a cat housepet. housepets have a set of commands in a right-click menu. the girl kept pressing "Feed Pepper" which was programmed to make the cat /sneeze. somehow the repeated commands made the cat go into /sleep that was unchangable. a GM couldnt fix it (b/c eq2 gms are outsourced pakistanis) but basically it was a 14+ page thread of hokey one-liners and jokes that amounts to a heap of people enjoying themselves thx to useless downtime activities
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Nahualli
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8461
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Posted: 07/13/05 - 01:10 Post subject:
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| Occulis wrote: | You and me seem to be the only ones, Lally. Mine is almost purely from an economic and canned-ham standpoint. Wailing Caverns isn't scary. In fact, I don't think there's a scary part in WoW, period, is there?
Veeshan's Peak. That was scary. |
| Occulis wrote: | | There's a reason I can buy 1000 gold in WoW for $100. |
Both of these statements point to the same fact, that nothing's new anymore. Dunn, I don't think that the implied connection between 1000 gold for $100 and instances exists. Most of the stuff that would be sellable that drops in instances is bind on pickup. Most of the good rewards from quests are bind on pickup. This only leaves what can be farmed from outside.
The reason gold farming picked up on day 1 of WoW opening was because the market - the demand and the supply was already there. There was no market that had to evolve, there were no suppliers that had to be found. People who had been doing this for other games just dove right in and started taking to this game in a big way. The mentality that ebay was always an option drove the farmers from the start.
Veeshan's Peak was also scary because it was new and because it took a while to get to. I bet you that after the 20th time the first guild to clear it did so they certainly didn't think it was very new OR scary either. The same could be said about any other zone in any other MMO. I don't see what makes anything in WoW any different from the other games out there.
-Nah-
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Psink
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 872
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Posted: 07/13/05 - 01:59 Post subject:
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You say the only memorable character from WoW is Leeroy but you've never played to end game and seen the drama between guilds or talked to any level 60 except Viridus 
Cross server "hero" reputation status is unimportant mostly. Atleast it sounds like you were talking about within a community reputation and then you switched to talking about leeroy and fansy.
Whitetiger is someone who ninja looted some warrior class armor in hate or fear or something, no one gives a shit about the armor because shit b***h it's some virtual pixels but almost everyone on tarew marr knew that he was an untrustworthy individual.
Also you will most likely never get server wide reputation for being good at your class with everyone. I mean if I group with someone in your guild and they say I'm good at my class then next time you're looking for my class to fill a group spot are you gonna /who me first? no you're gonna do /shout LOOKING FOR THAT ONE CLASS and then after a while when no one responds you might try to convince me to come over after seeing my name in a /who all 60-65. The only people who will look directly for you straight away will be people who have actually grouped with you and found you memorable or people you have established friendships with.
Reputation is also going to be meaningless to farmers, oh noes they can't join your guild and not go to any raid events anyway because they're just farming all the time.
My main problem with instances in wow is that there wasn't really anywhere (but IF and Orgrimmar) where members of useless or overpopulated classes could go to sit around jerking off and spamming lfg for a particular zone (shooting shit with other lfg people was always fun in velks and daoc and stuff) and so most forming groups don't even realise that you are looking unless it is your friend forming one with inviting you in mind.
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ATM Banana
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 8575
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Posted: 07/13/05 - 02:13 Post subject:
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wtf I said no pickles.
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Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
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Posted: 07/13/05 - 03:16 Post subject:
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Howling Stones should have been an instance. Best group zone ever. Good loot, perfect challenges.
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 07/13/05 - 04:20 Post subject:
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Instances are great - in moderation.
First of all: I love what EQ2 did in terms of creating a second instance when the first one had a very high number of people. You still have other people around you, but you don't have the lists from guk. Let's face it: nowadays no one would sit at zone in anymore being #3 on a list, waiting hours to get in and play the game.
I think that kind of instancing should be in every next generation game.
Instance-quests/missions: Again, good thing. I enjoy DoN where one group can get a mission with a task and complete it. Tasks that would simply not be possible in a non-instanced zone. (I guess you'd have to play DoN to see what I mean)
Instancing raid content: yes and no. EQ has a decent moderation in OoW: end zone is instanced, the others are not. You can still race for mobs (including those for epic 2.0) but the end-zone is all yours.
I prefere more instancing and less servers... more people makes for bigger economies, less of a hassle to find pickup groups or guilds.
However, instancing everything (Hi WoW) so that you feel no one but your group actually plays the damn game... no fun at all.
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Nahualli
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8461
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Posted: 07/13/05 - 05:50 Post subject:
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Interestingly enough I had my first instance experience today, in Scholomance. I came away with a very distinct impression and it wasn't the best. It wasn't like an LDoN, where even the same dungeon may or may not have some surprises in it. This is a cookie-cutter replica of the same dungeon someone else is doing. The mobs are the same, and with the pursuit of certain items (in this case it was the Valor helm) there's absolutely no fun to be had, just lots of loot.
I mentioned I had never been there before, if someone wouldn't mind letting me know when we were going to engage a boss. The reply that came back? "Just shut up and follow you'll be fine".
I think that statement sums up a lot of WoW. After years and years of the ubergamer being honed across a dozen MMOs, by the time a 5th generation MMO comes out like WoW, everyone's over the glitz and glamor of it. Just like the gold farmers. To them this is just one more game to be farmed. To the ubergamer, this is just one more dungeon to be beat.
I got the distinct impression that if the leader of the raid I was on could have done the place by himself, he would have. He just needed everyone there to heal him and back him up. He (mangina) did not appear to be the least bit interested in socializing or bantering at all. The entire raid was over in about 45 minutes, I don't know how good or bad this is, but that's how fast it was (several comments were made about how many mobs got nerfed in the patch this may have something to do with it.)
The long and the short of it is, I feel WoW is in 8 months where EQ got in 5 years. That alone says a lot. Maybe it's the sheer amount of content that EQ released.. I don't know. Something tells me it's the evolving attitude of the gamer at fault more than the progression of the games.
-Nah-
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