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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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 Posted: 07/10/05 - 15:59 Post subject: MMO-Related: DAoC concentration combined with EQ twisting
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http://www.vitrius.net/wiki/index.php/Statistics
== Pools ==
Every MMO gamer is familiar with the two standard pools, hit points and mana. They are usually represented with red and blue bars, respectively. EverQuest 1 players are familiar with the Stamina pool, which had no real use except in jumping and moving around. In World of Warcraft, stamina is used by rogues to perform special abilities. It is represented in WoW with a yellow bar.
In Vitrius we will have 4 pools. Not all four will be visible to all players. A pure melee character, for instance, would never see a mana bar. The pools are:
* Hit points - When these reach zero, you die. A person hitting you with a club lowers this. Healing effects and health regen raises this.
* Mana points - You cast spells out of this pool. The amount is visible to the player, so they can plan accordingly. Mana pumps and mana regen raise this value.
* Endurance points - This is the pool from which you perform special melee abilities. Many abilities are cheap, some are very costly. This starts full and is depleted as you continue to engage in combat. It can be replenished through various effects and of course through endurance regen.
* Faith points - This is the pool from which you perform religious acts. The intent of this pool is to allow the player to weave together some abilities, yet to cap the number of total abilities they can weave together. This is not for traditional healing spells! Priests will still use mana to cast their healing spells. This pool begins full. Typically, one single spell will wipe it out completely. It will replenish over the next 3-6 seconds, depending on size of pool and regeneration rate. Let us say you are a beginning priest and have one spell which uses Faith, let us call it Righteous Barrier. It places a 30 second buff on the player of your choice. You ask your god to put this blessing on the player (you 'cast' it). 2 seconds pass, and the spell lands on your target. Your Faith pool is emptied, and does not regenerate. As long as you do not ask for another blessing on another player, the 30 second timer does not lower on the player. In other words, you are 'channelling' a buff into the player. If you stop the channelling, the player has 30 seconds left on their buff. But, during that time, you can weave the buff onto someone else, since your Faith is restored in just a few seconds, and casting Righteous Barrior only takes a few seconds.
The intent of Faith points is to combine the very nice Concentration system from DAoC with the rhythmic, challenging twisting of EverQuest bards. The difference is, a player can channel their faith pool and melee, or channel their faith pool and cast spells, at the same time.
Does the faith pool sound like it would add some fun?
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Mogling
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 29 Dec 2002
Posts: 2451
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 16:12 Post subject: Re: MMO-Related: DAoC concentration combined with EQ twistin
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| Occulis wrote: | http://www.vitrius.net/wiki/index.php/Statistics
== Pools ==
Every MMO gamer is familiar with the two standard pools, hit points and mana. They are usually represented with red and blue bars, respectively. EverQuest 1 players are familiar with the Stamina pool, which had no real use except in jumping and moving around. In World of Warcraft, stamina is used by rogues to perform special abilities. It is represented in WoW with a yellow bar.
In Vitrius we will have 4 pools. Not all four will be visible to all players. A pure melee character, for instance, would never see a mana bar. The pools are:
* Hit points - When these reach zero, you die. A person hitting you with a club lowers this. Healing effects and health regen raises this.
* Mana points - You cast spells out of this pool. The amount is visible to the player, so they can plan accordingly. Mana pumps and mana regen raise this value.
* Endurance points - This is the pool from which you perform special melee abilities. Many abilities are cheap, some are very costly. This starts full and is depleted as you continue to engage in combat. It can be replenished through various effects and of course through endurance regen.
* Faith points - This is the pool from which you perform religious acts. The intent of this pool is to allow the player to weave together some abilities, yet to cap the number of total abilities they can weave together. This is not for traditional healing spells! Priests will still use mana to cast their healing spells. This pool begins full. Typically, one single spell will wipe it out completely. It will replenish over the next 3-6 seconds, depending on size of pool and regeneration rate. Let us say you are a beginning priest and have one spell which uses Faith, let us call it Righteous Barrier. It places a 30 second buff on the player of your choice. You ask your god to put this blessing on the player (you 'cast' it). 2 seconds pass, and the spell lands on your target. Your Faith pool is emptied, and does not regenerate. As long as you do not ask for another blessing on another player, the 30 second timer does not lower on the player. In other words, you are 'channelling' a buff into the player. If you stop the channelling, the player has 30 seconds left on their buff. But, during that time, you can weave the buff onto someone else, since your Faith is restored in just a few seconds, and casting Righteous Barrior only takes a few seconds.
The intent of Faith points is to combine the very nice Concentration system from DAoC with the rhythmic, challenging twisting of EverQuest bards. The difference is, a player can channel their faith pool and melee, or channel their faith pool and cast spells, at the same time.
Does the faith pool sound like it would add some fun? |
Twisting causes pain in the fingers is not challenging and even sony agreed it is a bad idea... buffs lasting <10 mins is a pita and not fun, trust me I did it in EQ2.
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Aluaeia
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 5670
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 17:39 Post subject:
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Buffing in WoW isn't too bad, even though most last 30 min, a lot last 10, but they're all instant cast, which owns.
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Nictathan
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 5531
Location: here... where I am... not with you
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 17:40 Post subject:
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Yes... the occaisonal instant cast spell isn't that bad of an idea...
Always liked running through lower level places, casting an instant dot on something and it falling over dead
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Chunkii
Luke Warm
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 196
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 17:41 Post subject:
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itll be cool for 30mins
30 mins later itll be like omg off self
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 18:21 Post subject:
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No one liked the mechanics of twisting, huh? I enjoyed it. I thought that was the whole reason people played bards? :\
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 18:30 Post subject:
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Eh - keep in mind SOE also thought kiting was a bad idea.
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Aluaeia
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 5670
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 18:40 Post subject:
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So did blizzard.
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Renork
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 23 Jun 2003
Posts: 6282
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 18:45 Post subject:
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could always put in a way for people to set the twist on auto if they want but get like a 5-10% bonus if doing manualy.
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Finigan
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3817
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 19:19 Post subject:
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For the love of god make some buffs perma till death/distance from the caster (stuff thats always gonna be up no matter what, like priest/cleric +hp buff type stuff) Having them last like 30 mins or however long doesn't do anything to make any encounter/situation more difficult. It's just a pain in the ass and makes people have to wait longer between doing stuff.
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Aluaeia
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 5670
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 19:45 Post subject:
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Ya, rebuffing is really a s****y forced timesink. Plus "/shout OMFG 48 HOUR KEI FOR PP" is f*****g obnoxious. If you want their buffs, f*****g group with them.
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Psink
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 872
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 19:53 Post subject:
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You should make it so you have to group with someone for their buff to continue but it continues for as long as you're grouped, hell you could even make buffs like auras that only effect groups (and maybe AE to all friendlies for raids with some like talent/AA thing)
The whole point behind buffs is making people more worthwhile to group with imo. Also timered buffs imbalance solo play kinda, making it less worthwhile to group.
Like... x mob is balanced for y level player without buffs if they're solo but x mob can be soloed by y-2 level player with buffs.
And x mob is balanced for 6 (arbitrary total group figure) buffed level y players but needs 6 unbuffed (If you form a group with no buffing classes) level y+2 players to be killed efficiently
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 20:00 Post subject:
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Those are really good points. Not sure about the timer buffs being bad, tho. Getting drive-by buffing from strangers is nice. Concentration, daoc style, has its own benefits and drawbacks. I think Spink remembers DAoC 2-boxers setting 1 person by a guard shack and loading up their main with concentration buffs. Then the main could roam around, whooping ass in PvP as an undercon.
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Psink
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 872
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 20:05 Post subject:
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Soloers having conc(/timered) buffs in PvP is a great way to make money for a game company but a horrible thing to do to players. Forcing people to have 2 game accounts and a computer capable of running 2 accounts or 2 computers to compete in the "Solo" game 
But yeah drive by buff from random strangers still imbalances solo play and makes it easier than grouping (shit it already is without buffs in WoW) which f***s up the social aspect of an mmorpg.
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atarom
Dalai Lama of RealPoor
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 16395
Location: 375th st. Y
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 20:11 Post subject:
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| Psink wrote: | | You should make it so you have to group with someone for their buff to continue but it continues for as long as you're grouped, hell you could even make buffs like auras that only effect groups (and maybe AE to all friendlies for raids with some like talent/AA thing) |
I thought this was brilliant.
1) encourages team play
2) yay no recast
3) encourages team play
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 20:29 Post subject:
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Maybe when cast on a groupmate, a buff never expires (until death or person leaves the party). If cast on non-groupmate, it has a short timer intentionalyl made into a pain in the ass.
Could make it group-based instead of raid based. Not sure if giving buffs infinite timers for a whole raid is good or not. Thoughts?
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Callaren
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Posts: 1598
Location: South Jersey
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 21:06 Post subject:
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| Occulis wrote: | Maybe when cast on a groupmate, a buff never expires (until death or person leaves the party). If cast on non-groupmate, it has a short timer intentionalyl made into a pain in the ass.
Could make it group-based instead of raid based. Not sure if giving buffs infinite timers for a whole raid is good or not. Thoughts? |
Good idea. Permanant when in group and timed when out of group.
In a raid, though, I'd be a shame if it made leaders only want one of a class because the only thing the class can offer to the raid is to buff.
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 21:35 Post subject:
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| Callaren wrote: | | Occulis wrote: | Maybe when cast on a groupmate, a buff never expires (until death or person leaves the party). If cast on non-groupmate, it has a short timer intentionalyl made into a pain in the ass.
Could make it group-based instead of raid based. Not sure if giving buffs infinite timers for a whole raid is good or not. Thoughts? |
Good idea. Permanant when in group and timed when out of group.
In a raid, though, I'd be a shame if it made leaders only want one of a class because the only thing the class can offer to the raid is to buff. |
Yeah I thought the same thing. Where to draw the line tho? If you make it group-only, then you need 1 of that class in every group. If you make it so 1 person can buff 10 people in a raid, and a group is 6, then you are setting artificial quotas for the # of required buffers per raid (1 every 10).
What a no-win situation.  Can you think of any creative ways around it?
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 21:41 Post subject:
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| Callaren wrote: | | Occulis wrote: | Maybe when cast on a groupmate, a buff never expires (until death or person leaves the party). If cast on non-groupmate, it has a short timer intentionalyl made into a pain in the ass.
Could make it group-based instead of raid based. Not sure if giving buffs infinite timers for a whole raid is good or not. Thoughts? |
Good idea. Permanant when in group and timed when out of group.
In a raid, though, I'd be a shame if it made leaders only want one of a class because the only thing the class can offer to the raid is to buff. |
Then again, the odds of the only thing a class being able to offer is a buff or 2 are almost nil. So... nevermind! 1 person giving a permanent buff to everyone in the raid is fine.
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Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 21:51 Post subject:
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permanent buff till not grouped or distance is good
but implement some limiting factor like concentration (a la eq2)- in other words one guy can't buff the "entire" raid - and you have to pick and choose which buffs to apply.
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 07/10/05 - 21:59 Post subject:
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EQ uses the same endurance system they propose... they got rid of the old stamina a long time ago.
As for the faith pool: sucks... twitching ^2: cast buff on person one, cancel it, wait for faith to restore, cast it on person 2 - repeat. Not only do you have to twitch the spell, you also have to switch targets.
As for buffs: Why do we need them again in the first place?
Every raid encounter is balanced with the idea that every raider has every helpful buff on them - oh yeah, that's a huge difference. Just take the buffs away and balance it without +hp buffs.
That also makes gear more important - those +10 resists are a lot more helpful if you can't get +150 resists from the guy with a vendor bought spell.
I'd be much more in favor of just having short duration, situational buffs. For example mages in EQ get a 300pt dmg shield that lasts for 4 hits (effectively 1200 unresistable dmg) and has a 30sec or so recast time.
Make those spells for other classes: A cleric who could cast a 10 second "20% damage reduction" shield for example.
And make MORE spells dropped! Give a cleric basic healing spells, a basic low damage nuke and make him GET those damage reduction shields etc. Just put one upgrade in every 10 levels or so, no one want's to replace spells on the same day they got them.
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