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Bait Masterson
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3842
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 Posted: 09/10/04 - 13:38 Post subject:
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| median wrote: | | Xion wrote: | | Booker wrote: | | Xion wrote: | | Booker wrote: | here we go again with the flawed logic...
so everyone in the middle east hates us? |
no, they don't. the middle east hating america is the liberal party line. |
what kind of discussion do you want?
a kindergarten discussion?
"SUZY STOLE MY CLIFFORD PAINT SET WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"
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Yes, that's what I was attempting to provoke. The usual suspects didn't bite 
In all seriousness, a great number of liberals claim that the only reason we're still at risk of terrorism is because we invade the middle east, causing them to hate us. |
Really, I thought countries liked to be occupied   |
so you suggest?
Ousting Sadaam and just leaving?
Or perhaps just leaving him in power, I mean really he wasnt hurting anyone was he.
You are so f*****g retarded that it actually hurts my head to know morons like you propagate and pass these stupid beliefs to future generations.
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Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 14:35 Post subject:
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Why don't we just stay out of it? I never understood the reason for Gulf War 1, nor do I understand Gulf War 2. I understood Afghanistan; we were attacked by terrorists and thus rooted those terrorists from their roost in that country.
Why did we stop Iraq from invading Kuwait, but we didn't stop genocide in Bosnia and Africa?
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 14:38 Post subject:
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| Silvermouse wrote: | Why don't we just stay out of it? I never understood the reason for Gulf War 1, nor do I understand Gulf War 2. I understood Afghanistan; we were attacked by terrorists and thus rooted those terrorists from their roost in that country.
Why did we stop Iraq from invading Kuwait, but we didn't stop genocide in Bosnia and Africa? |
Beuse the middle east is important to the US...Oil.
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Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 14:41 Post subject:
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| Confused wrote: | | Silvermouse wrote: | Why don't we just stay out of it? I never understood the reason for Gulf War 1, nor do I understand Gulf War 2. I understood Afghanistan; we were attacked by terrorists and thus rooted those terrorists from their roost in that country.
Why did we stop Iraq from invading Kuwait, but we didn't stop genocide in Bosnia and Africa? |
Beuse the middle east is important to the US...Oil. |
Yep that the truth.. Please dont be saying all this crap how "evil" he was. We all know the truth..
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Dyers
Sir Postalot
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 1269
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 14:41 Post subject:
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Kuwait for Gulfwar 1 and besides, I believe Bechtel oil is there. 
I have a family member that works for Bechtel and his self worth is over 10mil atm.
Bechtel Corporation
Bechtel Corporation (Bechtel Group) is the largest civil engineering company in the world. With headquarters in San Francisco, Bechtel was ranked as the 6th largest privately-owned company in the United States. As of 2002, Bechtel had 47,000 employees working on 900 projects with $11.6 billion in revenue.
Bechtel was a major contributor in the building of the Hoover Dam in the 1930s. It has also been involved in several other high profile construction engineering projects, including the Chunnel, numerous power projects, including pipelines, refineries, and nuclear power plants, the BART, Jubail Industrial City in Saudi Arabia, Hong Kong International Airport, the Big Dig, and most recently the rebuilding of the civil infrastructure of Iraq funded by the United States Agency for International Development (USAID).
The Bechtel family has owned Bechtel since the company's creation in the 1920s. Bechtel's size, its political clout, and its penchant for privacy have made it a perennial target for journalists and politicians since the 1930s. Bechtel has maintained strong relationships with officials in many U.S. administrations, including those of Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and George W. Bush. The company also has strong ties to other governments, particularly the Saudi Royal Family.
Recently, the company has come under criticism for alleged mismanagement of the Big Dig project, its financial links to the bin Laden family, and the manner in which it received Iraqi rebuilding contracts after the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003. Politicians in the United States and in Europe have raised accusations of cronyism between the Bush administration and Bechtel.
For many years, Bechtel has been a strong proponent of the privatization of utilities, highways, airports, and other facilities traditionally managed by governments. The company owns and operates its own power plants, oil refineries, water systems, and airports in several countries including the United States, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia. Bechtel's long involvement with oil, power, and water overseas have been a focus of criticism by the growing anti-globalization and environmental movements.
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 15:00 Post subject:
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| Orbit wrote: | | Confused wrote: | | Silvermouse wrote: | Why don't we just stay out of it? I never understood the reason for Gulf War 1, nor do I understand Gulf War 2. I understood Afghanistan; we were attacked by terrorists and thus rooted those terrorists from their roost in that country.
Why did we stop Iraq from invading Kuwait, but we didn't stop genocide in Bosnia and Africa? |
Beuse the middle east is important to the US...Oil. |
Yep that the truth.. Please dont be saying all this crap how "evil" he was. We all know the truth.. |
His evil further justified it. The middle east is crucial because without middle eastern oil, the US basically falls apart. They also happen to be the only region creating terrorists and sending them overseas to blow shit up. Iraq was in our interests. That much is clear. The point you're trying to make, however, is completely nonsensical.
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Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 15:15 Post subject:
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Chants WMD WMD WMD..
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 15:20 Post subject:
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| Orbit wrote: | Chants WMD WMD WMD..
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Ah, idiocy. The last comforting corner for any liberal.
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Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 15:21 Post subject:
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| Confused wrote: | | Orbit wrote: | Chants WMD WMD WMD..
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Ah, idiocy. The last comforting corner for any liberal. |
Na that was the MAIN reason GW stated we was going in.. I guess he was wrong...
And to WIN the war on terrorisom.... Oh yeah he flip floped on that one..
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 15:34 Post subject:
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| Orbit wrote: | | Confused wrote: | | Orbit wrote: | Chants WMD WMD WMD..
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Ah, idiocy. The last comforting corner for any liberal. |
Na that was the MAIN reason GW stated we was going in.. I guess he was wrong...
And to WIN the war on terrorisom.... Oh yeah he flip floped on that one.. |
Actually the main reason was Saddam's refusal to comply with 11 UN resolutions and the UN's failure to act (which we now know is the result of rampant corruption). WMD was the main case to support the reason.
And no, Iraq was never stated as being invaded to win the war on terror. If you remember, shortly after 9/11 the bush administration stated that we should brace ourselves for a very long war (over a decade). Iraq was described more as a battle than a war.
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Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 15:37 Post subject:
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So your telling me, that we back up the UN when we want to? But when we dont want to its fair game? Thats a funny one.
Last edited by Orbit on 09/10/04 - 15:43; edited 1 time in total
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 15:43 Post subject:
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| Orbit wrote: | | So your telling me back up the UN when we want to? Thats a funny one. |
Moron. We used to always backup the UN (since the UN was pretty much run by us) until their rampant corruption made them turn their backs on their own charter (and us). I'm sure we won't waste our time dealing with them in the future.
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Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 15:45 Post subject:
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| Confused wrote: | | Orbit wrote: | | So your telling me back up the UN when we want to? Thats a funny one. |
Moron. We used to always backup the UN (since the UN was pretty much run by us) until their rampant corruption made them turn their backs on their own charter (and us). I'm sure we won't waste our time dealing with them in the future. |
Sounds like we was the bully there and they finally told us to stop.. If I read this right... But we was never part of that corruption....
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 15:53 Post subject:
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| Orbit wrote: | | Confused wrote: | | Orbit wrote: | | So your telling me back up the UN when we want to? Thats a funny one. |
Moron. We used to always backup the UN (since the UN was pretty much run by us) until their rampant corruption made them turn their backs on their own charter (and us). I'm sure we won't waste our time dealing with them in the future. |
Sounds like we was the bully there and they finally told us to stop.. If I read this right... But we was never part of that corruption.... |
It only sounds that way to an idiot. The US created and funded the UN. It was our ill-conceived design. We have been the world leader in international affairs since WWII. The UN followed our lead and example. Then came Iraq, and the now corrupt UN tried to act in the interests of the few who profited financially off of it, rather than in the interests of their constituent nations. Bush wasn't going to allow a few corrupt governments stop him from acting in American interests. I don't expect you to understand this because you're a leftist and therefore probably not very bright.
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Maelstrom
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 4072
Location: Montréal
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 15:59 Post subject: Re: If the middle east hates America so much...
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| Xion wrote: | | Why are there so many people that want to come here? The waiting list for visa's is ridiculous. Discuss. |
Slow invasion?
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Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 16:07 Post subject:
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Spin away!!!
Funny I never insulted ya but you feel the need to... Typical right wing tactic!
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 16:16 Post subject:
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| Orbit wrote: | Spin away!!!
Funny I never insulted ya but you feel the need to... Typical right wing tactic! |
I'm not insulting you. I'm stating fact. If the facts happens to be insulting, then so be it.
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Conqueso
Luke Warm
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 388
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 16:19 Post subject:
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| Orbit wrote: |
Yep that the truth.. Please dont be saying all this crap how "evil" he was. We all know the truth.. |
Absurd. Things are never black and white. I wish people would think instead of spurting repeats of what they want to hear. The easiest way to find out where someone stands is a simple "yes" or "no" question. No elaboration etc on the answer: Do you think it was good to have Saddam in power over Iraq?
People tend to quickly forget a lot of things with Sadam. The list is long but here are a few. The chemical weapon attacks against the Kurds. There's still a problem there that is not mentioned much. The chemicals soaked into the soil. The chemicals are also leaching out of the buried corpses. It has gotten into the ground water. Although the initial attack killed many Kurds, the legacy of the attack is still ongoing and showing up as birth defects, neurological diseases, etc. Remember Saddam rewarding Palestian families of suicide bombers? The draining of the swamps in eastern Iraq to punish the uprising? The killing of the Iraqi Olympic soccer players when they lost? etc etc
As for oil, it probably has a hand in it but it is not as big of a factor as you might think. One counterargument I have heard is, "So what if it is for oil?" Look at Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar. It really looks like they are really hurting due to their oil. Again, it is probably involved but not at the level people think it is. Oil is one thing but economics is a whole lot bigger issue.
There were a lot of countries with vested economic interest with Sadam and Iraq. Did it ever dawn on anyone that the French were trying to persuade Saddam for over a year to step down and have his son take over? Saddam's sons were as sadistic as he was but such a act would of lifted sanctions and allowed business as usual for the countries involved in business there. France was not the only country involved. Germany, China, and other countries also had vested economic interests in Iraq. Even when sanctions were in place, people still tried to conduct business:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040908-123000-1796r.htm
Even the people that imposed the sanctions, the UN, is now suspected to have had economic involvement. Remember the report about the UN Secretary's son involved in shady deals behind the scenes involving the oil for food program? Dont hear too much about it now.
You dont know the truth. People like to see things in black and white, but nothing is ever that simple.
| Quote: | | We didn't stop genocide in Bosnia and Africa? |
We still have troops stationed in Bosnia. In Africa the US has been involved with Sudan, Western Sahara, Somalia, and Liberia recently. I think a big mistake was done in Ruwanda in terms of handling genocide. I think that is why you are seeing a more active role of the US in Sudan. The good news is that other African countries are also taking an active role in settling African issues. Here is an interesting article: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-08-21-west-africa_x.htm
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Dyers
Sir Postalot
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 1269
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 16:22 Post subject:
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Cheese, always with the well thought out replies.
Nice bro.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 17:32 Post subject:
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| Silvermouse wrote: | Why don't we just stay out of it? I never understood the reason for Gulf War 1, nor do I understand Gulf War 2. I understood Afghanistan; we were attacked by terrorists and thus rooted those terrorists from their roost in that country.
Why did we stop Iraq from invading Kuwait, but we didn't stop genocide in Bosnia and Africa? |
We fight for freedom, not just ours but the worlds..it's what we do. As far as genocides we havn't stopped..we can't fix all the worlds problems on our own. Fighting terrorism and evil groups throughout the world would be much easier if some of the larger countries like Germany, France would help out; this shit cost big $$ yo.
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Guest
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 18:05 Post subject:
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| Orbit wrote: | Spin away!!!
Funny I never insulted ya but you feel the need to... Typical right wing tactic! |
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Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 18:36 Post subject:
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| Scrabler wrote: | | Silvermouse wrote: | Why don't we just stay out of it? I never understood the reason for Gulf War 1, nor do I understand Gulf War 2. I understood Afghanistan; we were attacked by terrorists and thus rooted those terrorists from their roost in that country.
Why did we stop Iraq from invading Kuwait, but we didn't stop genocide in Bosnia and Africa? |
We fight for freedom, not just ours but the worlds..it's what we do. As far as genocides we havn't stopped..we can't fix all the worlds problems on our own. Fighting terrorism and evil groups throughout the world would be much easier if some of the larger countries like Germany, France would help out; this shit cost big $$ yo. |
Well wait a minute. A few people above said that we fought in Gulf War 1 for oil interests. So is it freedom or oil? If you're going to say that it was both, then say it was both!
I can understand why we'd want to get rid of Saddam and why we'd want to protect our oil interests in Kuwait, but for God's sake, they should just SAY it to us instead of fumbling around for other reasons. Tell us that we're declaring war on Iraq because we need to protect our oil interests, not just because Saddam is a tyrant.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 18:43 Post subject:
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| Silvermouse wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: | | Silvermouse wrote: | Why don't we just stay out of it? I never understood the reason for Gulf War 1, nor do I understand Gulf War 2. I understood Afghanistan; we were attacked by terrorists and thus rooted those terrorists from their roost in that country.
Why did we stop Iraq from invading Kuwait, but we didn't stop genocide in Bosnia and Africa? |
We fight for freedom, not just ours but the worlds..it's what we do. As far as genocides we havn't stopped..we can't fix all the worlds problems on our own. Fighting terrorism and evil groups throughout the world would be much easier if some of the larger countries like Germany, France would help out; this shit cost big $$ yo. |
Well wait a minute. A few people above said that we fought in Gulf War 1 for oil interests. So is it freedom or oil? If you're going to say that it was both, then say it was both!
I can understand why we'd want to get rid of Saddam and why we'd want to protect our oil interests in Kuwait, but for God's sake, they should just SAY it to us instead of fumbling around for other reasons. Tell us that we're declaring war on Iraq because we need to protect our oil interests, not just because Saddam is a tyrant. |
Only people I know that say it's for oil are anti-war and liberal..I have never said any of our midle east wars were for oil. Honestly I think we should use some of the oil profits to help with our war debts but that's not the reason we fight. We fight to protect our freedom and to give others the same chance.
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Conqueso
Luke Warm
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 388
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 18:55 Post subject:
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Heh, nothing is ever black and white. There is rarely one reason for a war. For example, with the situation in Sudan and using the same "black and white" mentality in resolving the motivations behind a country's actions:
| Quote: | | The politically loaded word could trigger action under the international treaty on genocide. But Canada, a party to the treaty along with the United States, again refused Thursday to say whether genocide has occurred. |
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040910.wxsudan0910/BNStory/Front/
Why would Canada take such a stance?
| Quote: | | 30 August - The Canadian oil company Talisman Energy is set to face charges of "complicity in genocide and war crimes" in a US court due to its past engagements in southern Sudan. The Presbyterian Church of Sudan is challenging the company, claiming its operations had fuelled an "oil war" in the region that victimised "hundreds of thousands" of people. |
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/jim/2004/08/31#a806
So, Canada is refusing to call the Sudan situation a genocide due to a law suit involving one of it's oil companies? It looks like Canada is burying corpses as quick as it can under a pool of oil. (I'm being sarcastic.) Of course this is silly, as doing such a thought process is with most countries, including the United States. (Or maybe it isnt being silly since oil companies are not completely squeeky clean - but is the country of Canada fully to blame?) Nothing is as simple as people want to make it.
Edit: Blog link would not go through. Try http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/jim/ and scroll down to "Oil company faces genocide charges over Sudan engagement".
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