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xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
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 Posted: 12/03/04 - 16:38 Post subject: How quickly folks forget.
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This will make no sense to most of ya except may be Vek, but my brain is cooking and I must spew.
So I'm doing research for a PRF Grant on Naval Disarmament in the post Civil War Era and it is absolutely freaking shocking.
1. Just how little has been done on the subject itself since Beard in the 1920's, and damn little before him.
2. Just how shockingly profound an effect Admiral Alfred Mahan on the course of American naval thinking and the resulting effects on history.
What this guy wrote became almost gosphel and just destroyed any sort of discussion on whether to have a navy or not.
Man...I hope to hell I can write a book one day that in effect bitchslaps an entire country and changes the course of its thinking. Well...unless its like Liberia...cause I don't want to stop getting emails from them asking them to go in on getting money out of a swiss bank account.
Anywho
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 12/03/04 - 17:07 Post subject:
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Sorry Xammer doesn't ring a bell with me. I was a history major, but my focus was on diplomatic history, and since the US was pretty damn isolationist in its early days my primary focus was from WWI through the end of the Cold War. Before that I only took a broad survey course on US history.
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xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
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Posted: 12/03/04 - 17:10 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: | | Sorry Xammer doesn't ring a bell with me. I was a history major, but my focus was on diplomatic history, and since the US was pretty damn isolationist in its early days my primary focus was from WWI through the end of the Cold War. Before that I only took a broad survey course on US history. |
Dats part of the problem. We weren't near as isolationist as people think. Just ask the Chinese. =)
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 12/03/04 - 17:20 Post subject:
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Oh I know we had our share of meddling in places like China and Japan, but it tended to be very limited and heavily focused on trading. Generally speaking America entered the international era with the Spanish-American War in 1898, did our best to return to isolationism for the next 3 decades, and came out for good with WWII.
I focused on the modern era for my major concentration, and my elective courses were political science theory classes in the international relations field, and some cool random history classes. One of the coolest classes I took was entitled "Popes, Rome and the World" and was a seminar on the Papacy from the time of Constantine through the Great Schism (early 1400s if I remember?) We surveyed European/Near Eastern history as it related through the rise and fall of Papal influence, and the related history of Rome itself. The professor was named Peters, he was a widely published expert on the field, one of those cool seminars you take purely for intellectual curiosity as a senior. That might have been the best thing about going to a school like Penn, they had the #2 ranked undergrad history department at the time, and I was lucky enough to have some amazing professors who were international experts in their fields (and usually good teachers as well, since the 2 don't always coincide)
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kbarr
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 11239
Location: New York, now go fuck off...
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Posted: 12/03/04 - 19:59 Post subject:
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Get a room.
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xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
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Posted: 12/03/04 - 20:24 Post subject:
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Awww...Vek...we made Kbarr feel bad. =(
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ATM Banana
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 8575
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Posted: 12/04/04 - 17:48 Post subject:
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Abi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 1747
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Posted: 12/06/04 - 13:39 Post subject:
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Xammer I would love to sit and talk to you sometime .. you seem like a well informed, well-spoken man 
and NO IM NOT HITTING ON YOU !!! ;P
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Guest
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Posted: 12/06/04 - 13:41 Post subject:
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ITS A TRAP
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Dyers
Sir Postalot
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 1269
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Posted: 12/06/04 - 14:29 Post subject:
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| Jack Crow wrote: | | ITS A TRAP |
Don't turn your back on Abi, Xam. 
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Manuva
Banned
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2536
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Posted: 12/06/04 - 16:05 Post subject:
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He gives great anal massages...
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Ikkan
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 3086
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Posted: 12/06/04 - 17:06 Post subject:
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| Jack Crow wrote: | | ITS A TRAP |
AHHH 
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Abi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 1747
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Posted: 12/06/04 - 17:13 Post subject:
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LOLzle
FOR SERIOUS!!! I am admittedly ignorant about some world issues which I need to educate myself on .. Namely the situation between Palestine and Israel ...
My ignorant opinion on the matter is WHO THE f**k CARES give em some land and let em call it palestine. what is the big deal?
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 12/06/04 - 22:47 Post subject:
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as basically as possible Abi
Arabs want it all, Israel destroyed and no Jews in the "Arab lands." At the minimum they want ALL of the West Bank and Gaza, an Arab capital in East Jerusalem, and the right of return of refugees from the 1948 war (which would turn Israel into an Arab majority state).
Israel is willing to give back all of Gaza and most of the West Bank. They want to maintain some portions for security reasons and some where hte largest settlements are - this is all negotiable and not a major sticking point. Israel absolutely refuses to allow more than a symbolic right of return but has shown willingness to compensate the refugees - this is not really negotiable (as an aside, notice there is absolutely zero talk of any compensation or return for Jewish refugees from Arab nations, a number roughly equal to the Palestinian refugees from Israel) Israel wants to maintain all of Jerusalem, historic capital of the Jews, but may end up caving in at a later date - this issue was agreed to be postponed in the famous Clinton deal.
Those are the 3 main issues - right of return, Jerusalem, and the details about land swaps from Israel for West Bank land. In addition to the small little detail of the Arabs finally recognizing Israel's right to exist and ending terrorism...
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Abi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 1747
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Posted: 12/07/04 - 13:04 Post subject:
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OK so who, historically has the rights to those lands.. the Jews right? What makes the Palestinians think they have the right's?
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scrotum
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 828
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Posted: 12/07/04 - 13:31 Post subject:
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Go do some f*****g research fagboy. This s***s been happening for a long time and you are gonna actually start giving a f***s ass about it now?
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 12/07/04 - 13:42 Post subject:
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Abi the real answer is that BOTH sides have competing historical claims to the land. Both can present history and facts backing their side up. Everyone has their own views as to which side has a more authentic claim, and depending upon your own personal views you may be more so inclined to favor 1 side or the other.
The reality is that 2 peoples live on 1 land, and cannot be integrated so they must accept each other and create 2 states, side by side and wholly separate.
Israel has shown a willingness to do this as far back as accepting the 1st partition plan in the 1920s and again in 1948 and 2000. Most Arabs (as exemplified by Syke (Lebanese) posting here, just want the "f*****g Jews" gone, and will not accept any Jewish presence in "Arab lands." The extreme Jewish right wants all of historical Israel, but they are a minority within Israel and less of a problem.
In a nutshell, when the terrorists stop blowing people up, Israel will give them the majority of what they want and 2 states will exist.
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Renork
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 23 Jun 2003
Posts: 6282
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Posted: 12/07/04 - 14:10 Post subject:
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| Ikkan wrote: | | Jack Crow wrote: | | ITS A TRAP |
AHHH |
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Dyers
Sir Postalot
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 1269
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Posted: 12/07/04 - 14:39 Post subject:
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Need to kill all of Palestine and a Lebanese.
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Abi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 1747
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Posted: 12/07/04 - 19:25 Post subject:
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Hmmmmm...
Scrotum.. nevermind your name and avatar speak for themselves I won't reply to your idocy...
Vekky Poo.. I guess understand all the BS that's going on now with the bombing, etc but I guess what I'm trying to get at is the root of the issue .. WAAAAY back when...
Essentially it's a religious dispute over the "holy lands" right and that's why no compromise really works since they can't exactly cut Jeruselum in half !!! OK I get why the Jews feel Jeruselum belongs to them but where do the Palestine's claims come in? Chronilogically speaking, weren't the Jews there first and why is it so important to the Arabs? What is the religious significance of that specific are as it relates to the Arab's?
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 12/08/04 - 12:31 Post subject:
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The Dome of the Rock (built directly on top of the ruins of the 2 Jewish temples in Jerusalem) is where Mohammed supposedly rose up into heaven iirc. It is the 3rd holiest site to Islam, after Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia
As a side note, you do know that ALL new religions succeed and consolidate their influence by coopting aspects of their competitors. Early Jewish rituals borrowed heavily from existing traditions. Christianity merged many aspects of European pagan religions. In India Hindu and Islamic rivals often tear down temples of 1 faith and rebuild their own on the same holy ground.
As to who was there first, well Jews have had a continuous presence in Jerusalem and a few other cities in Israel for over 3000 years. They were there first. But ever since the Romans destroyed the 2nd temple in 70 AD and scattered many of the Jews throughout the Empire they have existed there as a minority within another dominant culture. From the time the Crusaders were expelled until the late 1800s the land of Israel was a sparsely populated area with well under 100,000 total residents, controlled by a neighboring power - be it Damascus or someone else. Much of the land was owned by absentee landlords in far away places like Turkey. Many of the "natives" were migrant Arabs, who moved around within the entire region tending animals and farming the land.
Who was there first more recently? To that question the Palestinians win. There was a very small continuous Jewish presence in Jerusalem, Hebron and a few other cities, but it was in the low 5 figures until the Zionist movement began in the late 1800s. Then the Jews legally purchased land from the absentee landlords and began escaping the persecution of Europe to reestablish the homeland. By the time of the 1st Partition plan in the 1920s the populations were about a 50-50 split. However back then they did not consider themselves Palestinians, they were just Arabs. Most desired to continue to be a part of Greater Syria.
So you see, both sides have legitimate claims to the land. That is why most people agree to just split it into 2, and let them live separately. The Jews agreed to this 75 years ago, still waiting on the Arabs.
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Abi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 1747
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Posted: 12/08/04 - 13:30 Post subject:
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AHhhh very interesting.. thanks Vek
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Dyers
Sir Postalot
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 1269
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Posted: 12/08/04 - 13:56 Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Christianity merged many aspects of European pagan religions. |
Ya, but that is not Christianity. 
That's Catholicism and her little w***e churches that still obey her laws. 
First Century Church is the actual Church that is still around to this day. The Remnant that obeys the Commandments of God and has the Testimony of Jesus Christ. Jewish like without the traditions that were a shadow of Messiahs return (things to come) because Messiah had arrived with his message.
Good read there, Vek.
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Abi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 1747
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Posted: 12/08/04 - 15:39 Post subject:
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I hate to say it but it seems a wall like the one formely seperating east and west Germany would be a good idea for this problem ...
Why are the Arab's being so stubborn? COMPROMISE people!!!
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xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
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Posted: 12/08/04 - 23:02 Post subject:
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| Abi wrote: | I hate to say it but it seems a wall like the one formely seperating east and west Germany would be a good idea for this problem ...
Why are the Arab's being so stubborn? COMPROMISE people!!! |
The wall is gonna be interesting when/if it gets done. It'll cost a lot in terms of political capital because its going to basically put the Palestinians into 3 sided ghettos, a rather ironic reversal.
As far as the Arabs compromising? When you get your teeth kicked in by 1 piddly little country for about 50 straight years in war after war and terrorist attack after terrorist attack it gets to be a way of life for hating people. Then add to the mix that the Israelis are pretty well off economically, that Islam is not a a terribly tolerant religion and is rife with leaders who will joyfully abuse it to keep power by reminding people how evil israel is as well as political leaders who do the same. So, compromise? Its a slim possibliity now if Abbas wins the election. If the other guy whose running for Palestinian PM while being in an Israeli Jail wins then not a chance in hell till he dies. But even if Abbas does compromise, the chances of Hamas or Hezzbolah killing him off are pretty good. They want to fight for the sake of the fight. Its been going on for generations now, its become tradition. Also, the people doing the fighting are controlling lots of the money coming in, and so long as thats going to guns, its not going to feeding and building infrastructure for their people, so it keeps'em p****d off.
Anyways, compromise? Not likely, but there is a possibility of it now if Abbas wins and doesn't get killed. Allbeit a slim one.
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Starks
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 865
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Posted: 12/09/04 - 01:25 Post subject:
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Arabs will not compromise because their quality of life is so low that there is no happiness, peace, safehaven to compromise back to. If you live in a miserable place all of the time, why would you want to compromise yourself into a miserable place?
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Xion
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2117
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: 12/09/04 - 07:42 Post subject:
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| Abi wrote: | | OK so who, historically has the rights to those lands.. the Jews right? What makes the Palestinians think they have the right's? |
This is probably the most frequently asked question regarding Israel.
The truth is, no one has the "rights" to the lands. Whoever is capable of holding the land, militarily, has the "rights" to it, I think. That area has changed hands hundreds of times over the course of history. Why then is it now deemed that the palestinians"(a group of people who didn't even exist prior to Israel) have the "rights" to the land and that the Israelis are the evil conquerors?
No, I'm not jewish, but in this instance I think it's fair to fall back onto natural law, say f**k it, and let them duke it out.
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Starks
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 865
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Posted: 12/09/04 - 11:18 Post subject:
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Yeah, remember the native americans were here first. To Americans that didn't mean anything. The way it is in the world for the past 3 millenia is the person with the best weapons holds onto the land.
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Abi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 1747
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Posted: 12/09/04 - 18:08 Post subject:
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| Starks wrote: | | Yeah, remember the native americans were here first. To Americans that didn't mean anything. The way it is in the world for the past 3 millenia is the person with the best weapons holds onto the land. |
Yea this was running through my mind as I was reading the forum Starks At least we are TRYING to make reparations to those still remaining and giving back some of their lands.. heh
Thanks all for the great info .. very interesting POV's and opinions
I would like to hear the Arab's "version" as well .. any Palestinians around these boards?
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 12/10/04 - 00:58 Post subject:
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| Abi wrote: | | OK so who, historically has the rights to those lands.. the Jews right? What makes the Palestinians think they have the right's? |
Supposively Jews and Arabs cohabited Israel untill the Romans pushed the Jews out of Israel. Then once muslims regained Israel they allowed the Jews to return. That is how a muslim explained it to me atleast. It's hard to know the truth, to be honest.
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