|
|
| Author |
Message |
sinrakin
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 7044
|
 Posted: 04/22/04 - 10:44 Post subject: Good editorial in the NYT about American competitiveness
|
|
|
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/22/opinion/22FRIE.html
This seems pretty much right on the money.
| Quote: | I was just out in Silicon Valley, checking in with high-tech entrepreneurs about the state of their business. I wouldn't say they were universally gloomy, but I did detect something I hadn't detected before: a real undertow of concern that America is losing its competitive edge vis-à-vis China, India, Japan and other Asian tigers, and that the Bush team is deaf, dumb and blind to this situation.
Several executives explained to me that they were opening new plants in Asia — not because of cheaper labor. Labor is a small component now in an automated high-tech manufacturing plant. It is because governments in these countries are so eager for employment and the transfer of technology to their young populations that they are offering huge tax holidays for U.S. manufacturers who will set up shop. Because most of these countries also offer some form of national health insurance, U.S. companies shed that huge open liability as well.
Other executives complained bitterly that the Department of Homeland Security is making it so hard for legitimate foreigners to get visas to study or work in America that many have given up the age-old dream of coming here. Instead, they are studying in England and other Western European nations, and even China. This is leading to a twofold disaster.
First, one of America's greatest assets — its ability to skim the cream off the first-round intellectual draft choices from around the world and bring them to our shores to innovate — will be diminished, and that in turn will shrink our talent pool. And second, we could lose a whole generation of foreigners who would normally come here to study, and then would take American ideas and American relationships back home. In a decade we will feel that loss in America's standing around the world.
Still others pointed out that the percentage of Americans graduating with bachelor's degrees in science and engineering is less than half of the comparable percentage in China and Japan, and that U.S. government investments are flagging in basic research in physics, chemistry and engineering. Anyone who thinks that all the Indian and Chinese techies are doing is answering call-center phones or solving tech problems for Dell customers is sadly mistaken. U.S. firms are moving serious research and development to India and China.
The bottom line: we are actually in the middle of two struggles right now. One is against the Islamist terrorists in Iraq and elsewhere, and the other is a competitiveness-and-innovation struggle against India, China, Japan and their neighbors. And while we are all fixated on the former (I've been no exception), we are completely ignoring the latter. We have got to get our focus back in balance, not to mention our budget. We can't wage war on income taxes and terrorism and a war for innovation at the same time.
Craig Barrett, the C.E.O. of Intel, noted that Intel sponsors an international science competition every year. This year it attracted some 50,000 American high school kids. "I was in China 10 days ago," Mr. Barrett said, "and I asked them how many kids in China participated in the local science fairs that feed into the national fair [and ultimately the Intel finals]. They told me six million kids."
For now, the U.S. still excels at teaching science and engineering at the graduate level, and also in university research. But as the Chinese get more feeder stock coming up through their high schools and colleges, "they will get to the same level as us after a decade," Mr. Barrett said. "We are not graduating the volume, we do not have a lock on the infrastructure, we do not have a lock on the new ideas, and we are either flat-lining, or in real dollars cutting back, our investments in physical science."
And what is the Bush strategy? Let's go to Mars. Hello? Right now we should have a Manhattan Project to develop a hydrogen-based energy economy — it's within reach and would serve our economy, our environment and our foreign policy by diminishing our dependence on foreign oil. Instead, the Bush team says let's go to Mars. Where is Congress? Out to lunch — or, worse, obsessed with trying to keep Susie Smith's job at the local pillow factory that is moving to the Caribbean — without thinking about a national competitiveness strategy. And where is Wall Street? So many of the plutocrats there know that the Bush fiscal policy is a long-term disaster. They know it — but they won't say a word because they are too greedy or too gutless.
The only crisis the U.S. thinks it's in today is the war on terrorism, Mr. Barrett said. "It's not." |
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
 |
Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 10:51 Post subject:
|
|
|
That article has some very good points, particularly reggarding how the tax structure in this country is killing business - something your Kerry only wants to make worse. Or schools being more concerned with feel good political correctness than rigid academics and actual knowledge. Or opposition to school choice to trap children in failing inner city schools. Or the teacher's unions opposing any meaningful change or teacher accountability. Shall I go on?
The problems regarding us attracting skilled immigrants are a smaller factor compared to the structural issues within the US, and most likely only temporary as we adjust to the new world order of terrorist threats.
For those of us older than 15 you should all remember how Japan was going to destroy the US in the 80s, Europe in the 90s and so forth. Yet who is still the #1 in the world? The US god damn it!
There is just something about the American culture, that Puritan work ethic and entrepeneureal spirit, that will keep us the #1 nation in the world. As long as the Democratic Socialists don't get their way and turn us into Europe that is.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 10:55 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
Why are you quoting Al Jazeera? I mean, the New York Times?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 11:15 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
Any intelligent discussion about improving the situation is impossible; Republicans will just maintain that it's all b******t and that there is no problem, Democrats will just harp on insignificant statistics while doing nothing about it.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Nobunaga
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 932
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 11:56 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Vekril wrote: | That article has some very good points, particularly reggarding how the tax structure in this country is killing business - something your Kerry only wants to make worse. Or schools being more concerned with feel good political correctness than rigid academics and actual knowledge. Or opposition to school choice to trap children in failing inner city schools. Or the teacher's unions opposing any meaningful change or teacher accountability. Shall I go on?
The problems regarding us attracting skilled immigrants are a smaller factor compared to the structural issues within the US, and most likely only temporary as we adjust to the new world order of terrorist threats.
For those of us older than 15 you should all remember how Japan was going to destroy the US in the 80s, Europe in the 90s and so forth. Yet who is still the #1 in the world? The US god damn it!
There is just something about the American culture, that Puritan work ethic and entrepeneureal spirit, that will keep us the #1 nation in the world. As long as the Democratic Socialists don't get their way and turn us into Europe that is. |
Vekril, WTf are you talking about? Puritan work ethic is not going to help us in the fact that the US is losing it's edge educationally. We used to have an advantage that we were able to attract the brightest and smartest throughout the world but now many of these post graduates are simply getting educated here and moving back to their native countries. Our R & D is suffering and many jobs are being outsourced because of it.
The US being #1 in what...overzealous consumption? We have simply become a value added society where we have eliminated jobs and threatened the stability of the working/middle classes which have in the past made up our foundation so we could buy cheaper products elsewhere. And currently, the dollar is weaker than ever globally.
The US's inability to attract skilled laborers is not important? You have no clue of what is going in the workplace and what's happening globally obviously.
This is not a political problem that can be blamed upon either the Republicans or democrats but a fundamental problem that revolves around the fact that we are making a transition into a service only society while neglecting what made this country great in the first place....manufacturing and production. Globalization can be a good thing but in order to be competitive in this new environment, the politicians have to make sure that there is a level playing field which hasn't occured thus far and the American populace needs to wake the f**k up and take the initiative for themselves by making sure that they get educated and make dam sure that their children get more than a high school diploma or 4 year degree. The issue of taxes is irrelevant in the broad scheme of things and mainly involves the redistribution of wealth. Having lower taxes is really a bandaid that masks the core problem.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 12:09 Post subject:
|
|
|
That is exactly what I am talking about Nobu.
Get rid of this political correctness b******t that has destroyed our schools and universities at every level. Less emphasis on feeling good about yourself or the culture of native american women of the 14th century, and more emphasis on hard knowledge. It is not the Republicans who have destroyed this country's educational system.
Prohibitive taxes that are helping push businesses overseas? Not Republicans.
More restrictions on visas for highly skilled immigrants? That one I would place on both parties, Bush may be in power now, but if you look at the campaign of John Edwards protectionism and anti-immigrant attitudes are becoming a strong labor/democratic issue, as well as being a Republican issue in how we secure our borders.
The US still attracts plenty of skilled laborers, we are and will be fore the foreseeable future the #1 most desirable immigrant destination. We just need to find a way to better balance post 9/11 security issues with economic concerns (see above comment as well).
Finally, I guess I just have more faith in our country than you do Nobu. I remember the 80s when every chicken little cried that the sky was falling and Japan would blow past us, and how that didn't come true. I have no doubt that while the next few years are bumpy, the US will overcome adn adapt, as it always has.
I believe in my country.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Nobunaga
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 932
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 12:52 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Vekril wrote: | That is exactly what I am talking about Nobu.
Get rid of this political correctness b******t that has destroyed our schools and universities at every level. Less emphasis on feeling good about yourself or the culture of native american women of the 14th century, and more emphasis on hard knowledge. It is not the Republicans who have destroyed this country's educational system.
Prohibitive taxes that are helping push businesses overseas? Not Republicans.
More restrictions on visas for highly skilled immigrants? That one I would place on both parties, Bush may be in power now, but if you look at the campaign of John Edwards protectionism and anti-immigrant attitudes are becoming a strong labor/democratic issue, as well as being a Republican issue in how we secure our borders.
The US still attracts plenty of skilled laborers, we are and will be fore the foreseeable future the #1 most desirable immigrant destination. We just need to find a way to better balance post 9/11 security issues with economic concerns (see above comment as well).
Finally, I guess I just have more faith in our country than you do Nobu. I remember the 80s when every chicken little cried that the sky was falling and Japan would blow past us, and how that didn't come true. I have no doubt that while the next few years are bumpy, the US will overcome adn adapt, as it always has.
I believe in my country. |
The point that I'm trying to make is that people in general like to blame politicians/others for their woes without taking the initiative upon themselves. They generally aren't registered voters yet they b***h and moan. They are more concerned about taxes when there concern should be about bettering themselves through having an education and having a f*****g direction in life.
With regards to Japan and the 80's. Most people understood that Japan's dominance back then merely a reflection of us and most people who weren't paranoid about Japan realized that their economy was tied to ours. They flourished but only if we did. The global climate is far different these days. The economic players of today aren't dependant solely upon our consumption any longer.
Secure our borders? Make more restrictions on immigration. Only xenophobic a******s who have no clue on what the reality is would only be in favor of this. The pt is that illegals take jobs that no one else would take like picking fruit and veggies and although they send money back home, a lot of this income is spent here.
Again I don't think taxes are much of an issue and other than allowing the Government to become more bloated than it is. Both parties overspend and the fact that the government fields a non competitive environment is yet another example of American complacency. Having tenure as either a teacher/government worker is f*****g b******t if you ask me.
I love America and I like that I'm around so many different cultures on a daily basis since our country makes the template of how mulitcultural the world can be eventually but I'm the type who likes to push everyone to be better. And in my eyes, America is currently sitting on their asses.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 1179
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 13:10 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Nobunaga wrote: | | This is not a political problem that can be blamed upon either the Republicans or democrats but a fundamental problem that revolves around the fact that we are making a transition into a service only society while neglecting what made this country great in the first place....manufacturing and production. Globalization can be a good thing but in order to be competitive in this new environment, the politicians have to make sure that there is a level playing field which hasn't occured thus far and the American populace needs to wake the f**k up and take the initiative for themselves by making sure that they get educated and make dam sure that their children get more than a high school diploma or 4 year degree. The issue of taxes is irrelevant in the broad scheme of things and mainly involves the redistribution of wealth. Having lower taxes is really a bandaid that masks the core problem. |
I'm having a tough time with this one, Nobu. I agree with the majority of your points but I do have a couple issues.
It's true that the US is moving away from manufacturing and production but this is not a new trend. This has been going on for at least 20 years and I'm not still not convinced this is a bad thing. Quite the opposite in fact.
Another point of contention is your comment about taxes. Tax rates are never irrelevant to business. You know this. Lower tax rates are essential for a healthy economy. Viewing taxes as simply a method to redistribute wealth misses the big picture.
I wholeheartedly agree with you about education. Our education system is not a partisan issue. Personally, I'm really not interested in assigning blame to one party on this issue. I just want to see it fixed. Lack of accountability and political correctness have no place in our education system. The goal of schools is to educate. The goal is not to make children feel better or teach them values. That's what parents are for.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 13:19 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Rennol wrote: | | Any intelligent discussion about improving the situation is impossible; Republicans will just maintain that it's all b******t and that there is no problem, Democrats will just harp on insignificant statistics while doing nothing about it. |
Wrong. There is a problem.
The problem is to many democrats.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Nobunaga
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 932
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 13:35 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Nuldaan wrote: | | Nobunaga wrote: | | This is not a political problem that can be blamed upon either the Republicans or democrats but a fundamental problem that revolves around the fact that we are making a transition into a service only society while neglecting what made this country great in the first place....manufacturing and production. Globalization can be a good thing but in order to be competitive in this new environment, the politicians have to make sure that there is a level playing field which hasn't occured thus far and the American populace needs to wake the f**k up and take the initiative for themselves by making sure that they get educated and make dam sure that their children get more than a high school diploma or 4 year degree. The issue of taxes is irrelevant in the broad scheme of things and mainly involves the redistribution of wealth. Having lower taxes is really a bandaid that masks the core problem. |
I'm having a tough time with this one, Nobu. I agree with the majority of your points but I do have a couple issues.
It's true that the US is moving away from manufacturing and production but this is not a new trend. This has been going on for at least 20 years and I'm not still not convinced this is a bad thing. Quite the opposite in fact.
Another point of contention is your comment about taxes. Tax rates are never irrelevant to business. You know this. Lower tax rates are essential for a healthy economy. Viewing taxes as simply a method to redistribute wealth misses the big picture.
I wholeheartedly agree with you about education. Our education system is not a partisan issue. Personally, I'm really not interested in assigning blame to one party on this issue. I just want to see it fixed. Lack of accountability and political correctness have no place in our education system. The goal of schools is to educate. The goal is not to make children feel better or teach them values. That's what parents are for. |
Why are lower taxes healthier for the economy? I hate taxes but there is no empirical evidence that proves that lower income taxes will automatically increase saving among the poor/middle income or increase spending /re-investment habits among the wealthy. Unless these deductions are very large, their habits would generally be the same. With regards to business taxes, increased business taxes can actually force reinvestment since most companies wouldn't like to get taxed on net income so they would keep it under retained earnings by expanding their business or the like. The Fed rate has more influence over daily business reinvestment than a nominal reduction in business income tax.
The problem with going away from Production and Manufacturing is that the majority of our workforce is bluecollar. I being a multiple business owner have a problem seeing my old employees or any employee for that matter out of a job. And as much as I hate seeing people out of work, what burns me more is seeing the ones that do have jobs unable to afford a home, feed his/her family, provide basic medical and other necessities for them.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Banzai
Guest
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 14:12 Post subject: Re: Good editorial in the NYT about American competitiveness
|
|
|
| sinrakin wrote: | http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/22/opinion/22FRIE.html
This seems pretty much right on the money.
| Quote: | | Right now we should have a Manhattan Project to develop a hydrogen-based energy economy — it's within reach and would serve our economy, our environment and our foreign policy by diminishing our dependence on foreign oil. |
|
This is what I said about 2 years ago and some from this community called me foolish *cough* Vek *cough*
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Docter
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 15:28 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Kbarr wrote: | | Rennol wrote: | | Any intelligent discussion about improving the situation is impossible; Republicans will just maintain that it's all b******t and that there is no problem, Democrats will just harp on insignificant statistics while doing nothing about it. |
Wrong. There is a problem.
The problem is to many democrats. |
Yup!
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 19:43 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
I predict a second civil war will occur in this country, but the lines will be drawn politically, not territorially.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 1179
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 20:21 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Nobunaga wrote: | | Why are lower taxes healthier for the economy? I hate taxes but there is no empirical evidence that proves that lower income taxes will automatically increase saving among the poor/middle income or increase spending /re-investment habits among the wealthy. Unless these deductions are very large, their habits would generally be the same. With regards to business taxes, increased business taxes can actually force reinvestment since most companies wouldn't like to get taxed on net income so they would keep it under retained earnings by expanding their business or the like. The Fed rate has more influence over daily business reinvestment than a nominal reduction in business income tax. |
My reasoning on taxes is quite simple actually. We know that high tax rates are damaging to the economy. The government is notoriously inefficient in the way it spends money. Giving it more money through higher tax rates just creates more waste. Leaving the money in private hands is a much more intelligent investment. Regardless of whether the money is spent or saved, it is used more efficiently and has a larger positive impact on the economy.
I'm not entirely certain I agree about business taxes but I can see your point. I should ammend the last paragraph to refer to individual tax rates.
As far as the Fed rate is concerned, that is true. It has a much greater effect, however, that doesn't mean that tax rates don't affect the economy.
| Quote: | | The problem with going away from Production and Manufacturing is that the majority of our workforce is bluecollar. I being a multiple business owner have a problem seeing my old employees or any employee for that matter out of a job. And as much as I hate seeing people out of work, what burns me more is seeing the ones that do have jobs unable to afford a home, feed his/her family, provide basic medical and other necessities for them. |
I can appreciate this. This is a large part of why I think we may be better off moving away from this type of economy. As a first world country, we have a relative advantage in white collar labor but we are at a disadvantage for blue collar labor. Even if we were to force manufacturing jobs to stay in the US, we would only end up producing higher priced products that can't compete in a global market.
Globalization requires that employees work where they have the highest competitive advantage. For the US, that means you look at white collar jobs. I think what we need to do is spend more effort making retraining possible for displaced bluecollar workers. We don't need them moving to other blue collar jobs, we need them to move to a different field.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 20:27 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Nuldaan wrote: |
My reasoning on taxes is quite simple actually. We know that high tax rates are damaging to the economy. The government is notoriously inefficient in the way it spends money. Giving it more money through higher tax rates just creates more waste. Leaving the money in private hands is a much more intelligent investment.
|
This makes sense until you realize that corporate CEO's don't give a shit about anything except how many millions of dollars they will make this year, whereas our government is charged with the protection of our nation as a whole. I'd pay higher taxes any day. I view paying taxes as a patriotic privelege. It is my chance to contribute to what makes America great. People b***h and moan about taxes and then b***h and moan about not having [insert government funded service here] in the same breath. It's a two way street people.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Krumble
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 771
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 20:29 Post subject: Re: Good editorial in the NYT about American competitiveness
|
|
|
| Banzai wrote: | | This is what I said about 2 years ago and some from this community called me foolish *cough* Vek *cough* |
They probably called you foolish then for the same reason they would call the author of that piece foolish, today.
The only problem that could be solved by the creation of a hydrogen fuel cell is a lessening of the greenhouse gas effect. You see, CO gas can exist in the atmosphere in any quantity. On the other hand, H20 gas, the waste product of a hydrogen fuel cell, reaches a certain concentration (for given temperature) where it begins to precipitate out of the air and fall back down as rain.
"Hydrogen power" really doesn't create any power at all. In fact, it is inherently *much* less efficient as an energy source for cars than gasoline is.
This is on another tangent, but now you know.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 20:33 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Krumble wrote: |
The only problem that could be solved by the creation of a hydrogen fuel cell is a lessening of the greenhouse gas effect.
|
Ah, how quaint. Another person who thinks fossil fuels are unlimited and infinite in quantity.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 1179
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 20:41 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Rennol wrote: | | Nuldaan wrote: |
My reasoning on taxes is quite simple actually. We know that high tax rates are damaging to the economy. The government is notoriously inefficient in the way it spends money. Giving it more money through higher tax rates just creates more waste. Leaving the money in private hands is a much more intelligent investment.
|
This makes sense until you realize that corporate CEO's don't give a shit about anything except how many millions of dollars they will make this year, whereas our government is charged with the protection of our nation as a whole. I'd pay higher taxes any day. I view paying taxes as a patriotic privelege. It is my chance to contribute to what makes America great. People b***h and moan about taxes and then b***h and moan about not having [insert government funded service here] in the same breath. It's a two way street people. |
Rennol, what difference does it make what the CEO's motivations are? If he has more money, he will spend it and invest wisely because he wants more money. Wealth creating wealth is a good thing. Giving that same money to the government results in a lesser benefit to the economy because the government has no pressing motivation to invest or spend intelligently.
For the record, I never argued that we should get rid of taxes completely. That's an asinine opinion. The goal is to keep taxes as low as possible by trying to make the government as efficient as possible. You want government to have the minimum amount of money that it needs to adequately provide it's services. That leaves you with the largest possible amount of capital available in the market.
Last edited by Nuldaan on 04/22/04 - 20:42; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Krumble
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 771
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 20:42 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Rennol wrote: | | Krumble wrote: |
The only problem that could be solved by the creation of a hydrogen fuel cell is a lessening of the greenhouse gas effect.
|
Ah, how quaint. Another person who thinks fossil fuels are unlimited and infinite in quantity. |
Please, argue with me on a topic about which you know jack and shit.
Or save me the time, and go back and read the rest of my post, d*****t.
A hydrogen fuel cell wouldn't CREATE any power. Are you getting this yet? If someone were to invent a fuel cell that achieved anywhere near 100% efficiency, we would still be burning... you guessed it, fossil fuels.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 20:47 Post subject:
|
|
|
Nuld, your posts are fine in principle, and if that was the principle being carried out in Washington, that would be fine.
However, it is not.
Taxes are cut, spending is increased. Bankrupting the federal government isn't a good idea and the damage these fiscal policies are creating will take years to undo. Those who think the federal budget deficit will shrink on it's own are operating within the bounds of extreme wishful thinking.
The government isn't operating on minimum funds required, it's operating on less than that. And the bill will come due eventually.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 20:50 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Krumble wrote: |
Please, argue with me on a topic about which you know jack and shit.
Or save me the time, and go back and read the rest of my post, d*****t.
A hydrogen fuel cell wouldn't CREATE any power. Are you getting this yet? If someone were to invent a fuel cell that achieved anywhere near 100% efficiency, we would still be burning... you guessed it, fossil fuels.
|
Until they run out. Now who's the d*****t? I guess you'll be walking when the last oil well runs dry.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 1179
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 20:58 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Rennol wrote: | Nuld, your posts are fine in principle, and if that was the principle being carried out in Washington, that would be fine.
However, it is not.
Taxes are cut, spending is increased. Bankrupting the federal government isn't a good idea and the damage these fiscal policies are creating will take years to undo. Those who think the federal budget deficit will shrink on it's own are operating within the bounds of extreme wishful thinking.
The government isn't operating on minimum funds required, it's operating on less than that. And the bill will come due eventually. |
This is not theory. Lowering taxes creates greater revenue in the long term. I have no idea why this concept is still so contested.
http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s159/s159.html
Despite that, I don't believe our problem is tax revenue at the moment. I think our problem is a ridiculous flow of pork moving out of Washington. I don't excuse either party from this.
The first step should be to streamline the government as much as possible. From there, you can see what you need to do to address any budget problems. You can hardly address the budget when you don't even know how much money you really need to make the government run.
Last edited by Nuldaan on 04/22/04 - 21:06; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Krumble
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 771
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 21:03 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Rennol wrote: | | Krumble wrote: |
Please, argue with me on a topic about which you know jack and shit.
Or save me the time, and go back and read the rest of my post, d*****t.
A hydrogen fuel cell wouldn't CREATE any power. Are you getting this yet? If someone were to invent a fuel cell that achieved anywhere near 100% efficiency, we would still be burning... you guessed it, fossil fuels.
|
Until they run out. Now who's the d*****t? I guess you'll be walking when the last oil well runs dry. |
Wow, you really don't get it, do you?
Your last post is completely incoherent and fails to arrive at ANY point whatsoever. Will I be walking when the last oil well runs dry? No, I'll be dead and buried. Who is the disphit now? Still you.
Now that we've cleared up your questions, I want you to read carefully. I'm only going to type this once more:
Hydrogen cells don't create power. They are proposed as an ultra-low emission means of powering automobiles. To power these hydrogen cells (today), you would STILL have to burn HYDROCARBON BASED FUELS.
The hydrogen fuel cell, as a means of solving the eventual depletion of fossil fuels and ensuing energy crisis, is not in the slightest bit relevant. Dumb f**k.
Go to local library, open up 8th grade chemistry book, proceed to educate yourself. You lose at the game of life.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 21:06 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Krumble wrote: |
Your last post is completely incoherent and fails to arrive at ANY point whatsoever.
|
My post wasn't meant to be coherent, or pointed. Please point out where I said hydrogen fuel cells will be the 21st century equivalent of the second coming. I didn't. Thanks for caring.
Last edited by Rennol on 04/22/04 - 21:28; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Krumble
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 771
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 21:12 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Rennol wrote: | | My post wasn't meant to be coherent, or pointed. Please point out where I said hydrogen fuel cells will be the 21st century equivalent of the second coming. I didn't. Thanks for caring. |
Please point out where I stated fossil fuels would last us forever. Oh, that's right. I didn't.
I stated hydrogen fuel cells weren't the answer. You retorted with something incredibly witty like, "Ah, someone who thinks fossil fuels will last forever."
So not only are you a moron, you're also a hypocrite.
You lose. Please don't procreate.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 21:23 Post subject:
|
|
|
I'm a hypocrite now? Gee, thanks for that revelation! I had no idea that I was professing ideas or beliefs that I did not actually believe in. Wow. To think of what I have been missing all this time!
Edit: So I might have misinterpreted your original post as being made by some oil and gas magnate who is bent on having the world be run by oil fueled sources no matter what as opposed to someone simply pointing out a few facts.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 21:28 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Rennol wrote: | | I predict a second civil war will occur in this country, but the lines will be drawn politically, not territorially. |
I know who will win.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 21:28 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Kbarr wrote: |
I know who will win.
|
I want to be on your team.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 21:31 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Rennol wrote: | | Kbarr wrote: |
I know who will win.
|
I want to be on your team. |
Its too late, I have read your posts.
But if you are in good shape, I can find space in my freezer for your meaty parts.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Krumble
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 771
|
|
Posted: 04/22/04 - 21:38 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Rennol wrote: | I'm a hypocrite now? Gee, thanks for that revelation! I had no idea that I was professing ideas or beliefs that I did not actually believe in. Wow. To think of what I have been missing all this time!
Edit: So I might have misinterpreted your original post as being made by some oil and gas magnate who is bent on having the world be run by oil fueled sources no matter what as opposed to someone simply pointing out a few facts. |
I told you to re-read my post, didn't I? It wasn't complicated. I'm just glad you've seen the light and we can all get along.
I could explain exactly why you are a hypocrite, but it would require several more paragraphs which I don't really want to type. Re-read the last half of the thread again. Specifically, the part where you put words in my mouth first, then get all butt-hurt cause I did the same to you.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
