|
|
| Author |
Message |
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
 |
Frehya
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2398
|
 Posted: 03/06/05 - 14:39 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
but China is our friend$
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
|
|
Posted: 03/06/05 - 22:15 Post subject:
|
|
|
Unless I've missed something pretty big, then this isn't that big a concern, at the moment, since China still lacks the blue water naval assets to make and support a forced entry assault and subsequent conquest of Taiwan. They definately don't have the air assault capacity to do it, hell even our military doesn't have that. So, at present, the outcome will be just a hell of an air battle over the Formosa Straight with no real victor since neither can decisively beat the other.
Less of course it goes nuclear, but in that case China is going to lose some valuable beach front property as the Taiwanese are nuclear capable as well.
This all strikes me as more a part of a larger game on the part of the Chinese. Specifically they feel our #1 concern is a nuclear north korea since it threatens Seoul and Tokyo both, so they are publically trying to get NK to play ball with the talks, while privately prodding them to misbehave. All the while using their participation as a bargaining chips to leverage more concessions out of the US, Japan, and Taiwan as well as to provide a distraction from something else they got in the works. In fact, if I had to bet I'd say that the bill thing will eventually be used as leverage for more trade in the future.
As for them being our friends? Historically speaking, the only time capitalists and communists are friendly is when it comes time to play another round of "Lets see who can shoot the most germans". Always a fun game, since those silly boys and girls always seem to like to try and stick a thumb in the eye of someone every so often.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
|
|
Posted: 03/06/05 - 23:14 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
hi read the article where they are doubling or quadrupling their defense budget.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
|
|
Posted: 03/06/05 - 23:38 Post subject:
|
|
|
I did, and additional submarines & destroyers are anti-naval weapons only. Destroyers hunt subs and subs hunt ships. No where did it mention anything having to do with the acquisition of large numbers of transport vessels, the escort vessels needed to protect them (Cruisers & Frigates), the air defense vessels (carriers) to defend them, or amphibious landing vessels to put the troops on the beach.
Its great to have a 2+ million man army, but as Hitler proved you ain't crossing 26 miles of water if you don't have the amphibious capabilities for it and conventional air power alone doesn't beat a determined enemy. Not to mention that without carriers, the nearest friendly airbase for the Chinese would be approximately 400 miles away, so even keeping a CAP up would require that every plane be retanked in route for it to have any loitering capacity whatsoever.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
|
|
Posted: 03/06/05 - 23:43 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
Btw, this isn't saying that this isn't a build up of the build up of the build up for them to one day do it, but that day isn't today and it takes a long time to build all those ships. And when doing so is impossible to hide in this day and age. And serious overtures would definately provoke the Navy as well, not to mention the high probability of another rewriting of the Japanese Constitution and the deployment of their military there. Japan has a lot to lose by Taiwan changing hands.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Frehya
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2398
|
|
Posted: 03/07/05 - 11:02 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Frehya wrote: | | but China is our friend$ |
| xammer99 wrote: |
As for them being our friends? Historically speaking, the only time capitalists and communists are friendly is when..yadda yadda...I'm bored at work and need to latch onto something and chew and chew... |
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
|
|
Posted: 03/07/05 - 11:16 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
It's been said a million times, countries do not have friends, they only have interests.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Ikkan
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 3086
|
|
Posted: 03/07/05 - 12:21 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Frax wrote: | | It's been said a million times, countries do not have friends, they only have interests. |
Ikkanopia hereby rescinds the friendship of Fraxoria.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
|
|
Posted: 03/07/05 - 12:49 Post subject:
|
|
|
xammer seems to know his stuff. but i must ask 1 question. does he know The Stuff?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
cheese
Luke Warm
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 241
|
|
Posted: 03/07/05 - 14:11 Post subject:
|
|
|
| xammer99 wrote: | | I did, and additional submarines & destroyers are anti-naval weapons only. |
Why would the subs be for anti-naval weapons only?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
|
|
Posted: 03/08/05 - 21:48 Post subject:
|
|
|
a. To put it simply, subs sink ships while playin Mr. Sneakyman. Granted you can get into ballistic missile submarines, but those are a whole different animal requiring the complimentary technology of sea launched ballistic which is a couple of technological iterations away from land based ones. You can also get into the cruise missile tossing game, but again that takes additional technologies that the chinese don't have. So for the purposes of the chinese, subs are offensive naval weapons only. Hell even with the US navy a sub isn't a deterent weapon, just an offensive one. If you surface and show the flag to get people to behave then you are gonna get your ass blown outta the water.
Less of course you want to bring out the old style WW1 & 2 subs with the deck guns and annoy the beach front property owners without really doing much beyond that.
b. Absolutely countries don't have friends, only interests.
c. No, I've never seen "The Stuff", and I think i'm quite glad of that. Course Paul Sorvino is pretty cool, but that looks like a guy who just blew someone for the poster, so i'm gonna pass.
d. Me? Bored at work? never... I just know just enough to get me into trouble and convince me that its worth spouting pointlessly on the boards. =)
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
cheese
Luke Warm
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 241
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Dyers
Sir Postalot
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 1269
|
|
Posted: 03/09/05 - 14:22 Post subject:
|
|
|
| cheese wrote: | http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/archives/2001/10/21/0000108045
China may have cruise missles, or in the stages of developing them.
But you also left out intel and covert ops..which subs are both very good for. |
Thank you Bill Clinton.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
|
|
Posted: 03/09/05 - 15:40 Post subject:
|
|
|
| cheese wrote: | http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/archives/2001/10/21/0000108045
China may have cruise missles, or in the stages of developing them.
But you also left out intel and covert ops..which subs are both very good for. |
Though not outside the realm of possibility, I'd be very surprised if the Chinese had developed submarine sophisticated enough to make use of sub launched cruise missiles that were developed in 4 years from the air & surface launched ones sent in 1998. As for using them for intel? when you are 400 miles away, just use the tried and true method of fishing boats and other surface vessels. Cheaper and so long as you are outside the sea boundary there isn't much that the Taiwanese can do. Hell, considering the number of flights between Taipei and the mainland every day, getting your folks inside is cake as well.
So while subs can be used for those with additional technologies, its more cost effective to just use fishing boats. Subs aren't cheap to maintain at all.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
|
|
Posted: 03/15/05 - 09:23 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
they buy technology from Russia
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Starks
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 865
|
|
Posted: 03/15/05 - 10:48 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
The Stuff for the win. "They call me Mo, Mo Rutherford. Cuz everytime I ask for money, I always want Mo"
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
|
|
Posted: 03/15/05 - 13:11 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Frax wrote: | | they buy technology from Russia |
Goody for them. It still doesn't change the fact that to cross any significant body of water and sieze territory you need at the very least amphibious assault capabilites and the naval logistical support necessary to resupply your force on the ground. Heavy lift cargo air transport definately helps to add an airborn assault to the mix. However, it doesn't change the fact that the Chinese lack both of these. So while they might have the technology to sub launch cruise missiles or ballistic missiles, it doesn't change the fact that they can't take the place over. They don't have the capability, at preasent, to do more than nuke the shit outta taiwan, which utterly defeats the purpose since they want it for the industrial & commercial infrastructure present there.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
motherface
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 12 Mar 2003
Posts: 3407
|
|
Posted: 03/15/05 - 15:47 Post subject:
|
|
|
The US has had these since what, the 60s? How can China not have one by now?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Docter
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3420
|
|
Posted: 03/15/05 - 21:47 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
Don't forget that in the past three years, the Chinese have practised boarding tactics on their carrirers, to use against us...course one good nuke in one of our Naval Task Forces, would hurt us.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
|
|
Posted: 03/15/05 - 21:59 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Docter wrote: | | Don't forget that in the past three years, the Chinese have practised boarding tactics on their carrirers, to use against us...course one good nuke in one of our Naval Task Forces, would hurt us. |
eh no one is going to start a nuclear war except maybe terrorists or india/pakistan. Get the US, Russia, or China involved and you can kiss human civilization goodbye
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
xammer99
Luke Warm
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
|
|
Posted: 03/16/05 - 16:26 Post subject:
|
|
|
Outta curiosity, I know China's projecting a 25,000,000 male surplus in the not to distant future thanks to sonograms, abortion, and the 1 child policy, but how bad a population imbalance is India facing? They have a huge cultural stigma against female children and I know in the 90's there was a huge problem with problem resulting from it. But how big is it and has India had any success in getting it under control?
I ask because 25,000,000 surplus men in China is seriously bad news for all its neighbors and for China if it doesn't find somethin to do with them. And if India has a similiar issue things could get mighty interesting.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Brael
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2122
|
|
Posted: 03/16/05 - 19:56 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
They could kill the people and sell off human meat for more money to buy military equipment. Or more likely they can do human wave assults and conquer all of Asia.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
