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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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 Posted: 03/23/03 - 22:47 Post subject: Equlibrium and American Government Mind Control
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Tonight I went and saw Equilibirum for the second time, thanks to the UKs lack of covert censortship in movie distribution which apparently prevented this movie getting a proper release in the US.
It was even better than the first time! Such a fantastic film, more ground-breaking in terms of action sequences than anything in the last decade plus some quite subtle underlying thought provoking ideas, some of which I hadn't really picked up before. This is, in a phrase, the film that the Matrix *dreamed* of being but never made it.
One of the underlying messages I hadn't picked up on first time quite surprised me when I realised it - because it was actually fairly obvious. At first I thought it was a plot hole - a cinematic conceit which I had managed to circumvent simlpy by suspending disbelief as so much fiction requires at times.
The conceit was wondering how a society could be so sheepish to actually allow all emotion to be outlawed and accept the situation in Equilibrium.
But tonight it struck me. It was never *meant* to be implied that this had happened instantly. "Things" were still being added to the proscribed lists in the movie. The control, the loss of emotion and feeling and the lack of "beauty" in people's lives was *growing*. It was an incremental imposition of control. The "selling point" wasn't "let's get rid of all emotion and destroy any article people can enjoy". It was "let's control the *height* of emotion, let's lose *bit*", then later "to help us lose this bit, let's outlaw a very few extremely provocative works of art". I could see how such an outcome, the Libria in the film wasn't an "overnight affair" it was a prgoressive, bit by bit transformation. Hell, even the drug is called Prozium *2*, implying that there was a milder form before.
And the point is this. The idea of incremental controls is *EXACTLY* what is happening in the United States today. It starts with the Homeland Security bill (hell, argue it starts with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act) and can *progress* from there. Societies don't buy into complete control as an overnight concept but they can buy into it bit by bit, piecemeal but always working to an overall plan.
I feel sorry for Americans, I really have no hope for their society. They are buying into these curtailments of their freedoms. Bit by bit they are allowing themselves to become more controlled and less free. And they can explain it away to themselves as "the price of freedom".
But when that price eventually becomes freedom itself, what was ever the point?
Regards,
Eduin
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Mental_Hernia
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 3336
Location: Texas
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Posted: 03/23/03 - 22:54 Post subject:
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..
Lol never mind..
Yes the movie was good
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WheresNWS
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 6448
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Posted: 03/23/03 - 22:54 Post subject: Re: Equlibrium and American Government Mind Control
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| Eduin wrote: | Tonight I went and saw Equilibirum for the second time, thanks to the UKs lack of covert censortship in movie distribution which apparently prevented this movie getting a proper release in the US.
It was even better than the first time! Such a fantastic film, more ground-breaking in terms of action sequences than anything in the last decade plus some quite subtle underlying thought provoking ideas, some of which I hadn't really picked up before. This is, in a phrase, the film that the Matrix *dreamed* of being but never made it.
One of the underlying messages I hadn't picked up on first time quite surprised me when I realised it - because it was actually fairly obvious. At first I thought it was a plot hole - a cinematic conceit which I had managed to circumvent simlpy by suspending disbelief as so much fiction requires at times.
The conceit was wondering how a society could be so sheepish to actually allow all emotion to be outlawed and accept the situation in Equilibrium.
But tonight it struck me. It was never *meant* to be implied that this had happened instantly. "Things" were still being added to the proscribed lists in the movie. The control, the loss of emotion and feeling and the lack of "beauty" in people's lives was *growing*. It was an incremental imposition of control. The "selling point" wasn't "let's get rid of all emotion and destroy any article people can enjoy". It was "let's control the *height* of emotion, let's lose *bit*", then later "to help us lose this bit, let's outlaw a very few extremely provocative works of art". I could see how such an outcome, the Libria in the film wasn't an "overnight affair" it was a prgoressive, bit by bit transformation. Hell, even the drug is called Prozium *2*, implying that there was a milder form before.
And the point is this. The idea of incremental controls is *EXACTLY* what is happening in the United States today. It starts with the Homeland Security bill (hell, argue it starts with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act) and can *progress* from there. Societies don't buy into complete control as an overnight concept but they can buy into it bit by bit, piecemeal but always working to an overall plan.
I feel sorry for Americans, I really have no hope for their society. They are buying into these curtailments of their freedoms. Bit by bit they are allowing themselves to become more controlled and less free. And they can explain it away to themselves as "the price of freedom".
But when that price eventually becomes freedom itself, what was ever the point?
Regards,
Eduin |
Again I ask, since you never answered the first time. How much time have you spent here?
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Ogilven
Fresh Meat
Joined: 25 Oct 2002
Posts: 8
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Posted: 03/23/03 - 23:02 Post subject:
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| Quote: | | This is, in a phrase, the film that the Matrix *dreamed* of being but never made it. |
The Matrix has brought up its fair share of cultural questions.
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/
Check out the Philosophy section.
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Manuva
Banned
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2536
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 00:37 Post subject: Re: Equlibrium and American Government Mind Control
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| Eduin wrote: |
I feel sorry for Americans |
Please don't. A vast amount of Americans (myself included, wheeeeeeeee), could buy and sell your ass.
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Kbarr
Guest
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 01:19 Post subject: Re: Equlibrium and American Government Mind Control
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| Eduin wrote: | Societies don't buy into complete control as an overnight concept but they can buy into it bit by bit, piecemeal but always working to an overall plan.
Regards,
Eduin |
Hmm, like England took over scotland?
Last edited by Kbarr on 03/24/03 - 02:34; edited 1 time in total
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Dyers
Sir Postalot
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 1269
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 01:36 Post subject:
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Actually guys, Ed is right.
They have been working on this for years and years...
You don't believe it, no matter.
Night 
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Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 01:37 Post subject:
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Ed does have a point
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 01:58 Post subject:
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I could make the same point about creeping socialism in Europe (and to a lesser extent here in the US)
How much of your life is controlled by the government? How many ministries of XXX are there Eduin? How large are the lists of rules and regulations on both sides of the Atlantic? How much of your money is paid in taxes for the government to spend as it chooses? I would argue Americans are a hell of a lot freer than Europeans are. Americans have more individual freedom than the citizens of any other nation on this planet.
Go read a classic book, The Road To Serfdom, by F.A. Hayek - it explains how socialism/collectivism necessarily leads to totalitarianism, and how the process begins innocently and slowly creepts to its natural conclusion...
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WheresNWS
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 6448
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 02:08 Post subject:
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Hehe. I just realized France (a quasi-socialist country) is taking the leadership position in the EU, that Eduin is ruled by the French. So the following applies to him, now:
Shut the f**k up, Frenchy.
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Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 03:24 Post subject:
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Why does anyone care? By the time you die things won't have escalated to the point of alarm.
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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 03:27 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: | I could make the same point about creeping socialism in Europe (and to a lesser extent here in the US)
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Because, you know, socialism is a bad thing a priori, right? Err, right?
| Vekril wrote: |
How much of your life is controlled by the government? How many ministries of XXX are there Eduin?
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Roughly the same number as any other OECD country. About the same as there are in the United States.
| Vekril wrote: |
I would argue Americans are a hell of a lot freer than Europeans are. Americans have more individual freedom than the citizens of any other nation on this planet.
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A baseless statement has no merit Vekril, even the mind of a simple drop-out failure like yourself should be aware that such trite nonsense doesn't fly. Americans have little to zero freedom but fool themselves based on the conditioning of the state and its aparatus into believing that they do.
It is an interesting trait of the American psyche that it can continually fail to address its own issues and *always* fall back on the "it's not as bad as things are in country X". Again, its trite reasoning. I guess Laotians can say they are OK because, shit, they're better off than Somalis.
Sure, poverty is always relative but that's no reason for reductio in absurdam.
| Vekril wrote: |
Go read a classic book, The Road To Serfdom, by F.A. Hayek - it explains how socialism/collectivism necessarily leads to totalitarianism, and how the process begins innocently and slowly creepts to its natural conclusion...
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I was reading Hayek before you had thought of a college to drop out of. Of course, despite being quite an admirer of Hayek, I know that he lost the philosophical debate with Keynes and that the main thrust of this change in economic thinking and adoption of the Keynsian socialist macro-economic was pioneered by the New Deal in, err, America.
Regards,
Eduin
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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 03:29 Post subject:
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| WheresNWS wrote: | Hehe. I just realized France (a quasi-socialist country) is taking the leadership position in the EU, that Eduin is ruled by the French. So the following applies to him, now:
Shut the f**k up, Frenchy. |
The government of France (in a split view EU) has taken the position of the majority opinion. You know, as in represented the democratic wishes of the people.
I guess democracy is a bad thing?
Ah, I just realised, you believe it is better for the EU to ignore the wishes of its people and cow tow to the views of Geo Bush, the *unelected* president of a dangerous foreign power.
Regards,
Eduin
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Aluaeia
Guest
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 03:45 Post subject:
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The democrat and republican parties both use the constitution as toilet paper. Have been for 50 years, if not longer.
Bush is a f*****g moron who makes the special olympics look like a nobel prize convention.
This entire set of events is like watching a train wreck in slow motion from a water tower half a mile away.
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Kbarr
Guest
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 03:49 Post subject:
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| Eduin wrote: |
| Vekril wrote: |
I would argue Americans are a hell of a lot freer than Europeans are. Americans have more individual freedom than the citizens of any other nation on this planet.
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A baseless statement has no merit Vekril, even the mind of a simple drop-out failure like yourself should be aware that such trite nonsense doesn't fly. Americans have little to zero freedom but fool themselves based on the conditioning of the state and its aparatus into believing that they do.
Regards,
Eduin |
Hey you haggis eating scumbag, what the f**k do you know about freedom?????
You f*****g ASS!!!
YOUR COUNTRY IS OWNED BY ENGLAND! IT WAS ABSORBED. EATEN UP.
You launguage died and your culture was destroyed. All you have left is a kilt and a bagpipe to remind you of what it used to be like.
What a jealous joke you are, at least the Irish got back most of their country. You got bent over and stayed that way.
f*****g loser.
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Aluaeia
Guest
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 04:00 Post subject:
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Ad hominem > logic.
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hitachi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1508
Location: Maryland
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 06:21 Post subject:
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| Aluaeia wrote: |
Bush is a f*****g moron who makes the special olympics look like a nobel prize convention.
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| Aluaeia wrote: |
Ad hominem > logic.
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true.
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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 06:27 Post subject:
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| hitachi wrote: | | Aluaeia wrote: |
Bush is a f*****g moron who makes the special olympics look like a nobel prize convention.
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| Aluaeia wrote: |
Ad hominem > logic.
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true. |
Bush isn't participating in this debate, fuckwit. Therefore the quote your confused, dribbling mind is trying to belittle as Ad hominem is nothing of the sort.
I swear, you f*****g retards are regressing, becoming dumber by the day.
Regards,
Eduin
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khrath
Guest
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 06:38 Post subject:
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why does ireland and scottland have to strictly prohibit new inhabitants because they cant find enough work for their small populations.
I wanted to move to Ireland and become a fisherman, but I couldnt because europe is a bunch of broke d**k 3rd world countries barely able to stand on their own 2 feet without outside aid.
Why is over half of europe and asia scared as shit that they will lose all holds on the US due to our lack of giving a shit what the UN thinks?
Europe cant compare to the US, even the poorest of states, I live in one, oklahoma, isnt anywhere near as pathetic as areas in europe.
Our poor are well taken care of, aside from the ones who dont want it, and our rich are better off than most any country in the world.
You dont get close to a billion citizens in this size a land mass by sucking, if you need proof, look at canada or russia.
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hitachi
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1508
Location: Maryland
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 06:44 Post subject:
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arguing a topic using nothing but name calling, sounds like ad hominem to me.
this particular thread may not be on that topic, but do i give a f**k? nope.
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Xthos
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 09 Nov 2002
Posts: 550
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 07:21 Post subject:
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Eduin, watch the movie a third time, then check out Europe. The shit your spewing here is happening everywhere, not just the U.S. .
I believe that it falls under something for conspiracy theorists (havent seen the film) to assume that infringments on rights would go so far.
p.s.
Don't let Ed upset ya guys, he just likes to try to get a rise from people....I think hes just mad that his basic human right of screwing sheep in scotland has been taken away 
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NickPSH
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 5680
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 07:44 Post subject:
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The funny thing is, once we develop the methods for watching over citizens, Europe scrounges to catch up and uses them as well.
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WheresNWS
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 6448
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 09:43 Post subject:
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| Eduin wrote: | | WheresNWS wrote: | Hehe. I just realized France (a quasi-socialist country) is taking the leadership position in the EU, that Eduin is ruled by the French. So the following applies to him, now:
Shut the f**k up, Frenchy. |
The government of France (in a split view EU) has taken the position of the majority opinion. You know, as in represented the democratic wishes of the people.
I guess democracy is a bad thing?
Ah, I just realised, you believe it is better for the EU to ignore the wishes of its people and cow tow to the views of Geo Bush, the *unelected* president of a dangerous foreign power.
Regards,
Eduin |
Shut the f**k up, frenchy.
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 11:10 Post subject:
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just a minor correction for deal old Eduin - I GRADUATED from the University of Pennsylvania, c*m laude - an Ivy League University ranked in the top 10 in the US - you can ask Ashenor and Kireol, both of them saw my diploma on the wall when they came to visit =p
it was law school that I did not finish when I decided I would rather kill myself than become a lawyer - that is not all that unusual, many people choose not to finish graduate school in whatever field they mistakenly pursue subsequent to college
A for your aguments, not worth the time or effort to dissect them, but yes socialism IS a priori a bad thing, and Europe is much further down the road than America is - the Reagan revolution helped pull us back off that course. As Hayek said, most freedom in life all springs from basic economic freedom - the freedom to choose your own employment and decide what to do with your own income, and that is much greater in the US than any socialist leaning European nation, despite the best efforts of the Clintons and other liberals.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 11:26 Post subject:
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Ronald Reagan, savior of the free world:
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sinrakin
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 7044
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 11:31 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: | | Ronald Reagan, savior of the free world: |
But, wasn't Ronald Reagan an actor????
I thought we established in another thread that entertainers don't have the qualifications to make geopolitical decisions. This is all so confusing. 
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Akronn
Guest
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 11:31 Post subject:
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Reagan didn't even know what he was doing past '83. I knew the man was senile long before it was announced.
And nowadays, he doesn't even know who he is.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 11:40 Post subject:
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| sinrakin wrote: | | Frax wrote: | | Ronald Reagan, savior of the free world: |
But, wasn't Ronald Reagan an actor????
I thought we established in another thread that entertainers don't have the qualifications to make geopolitical decisions. This is all so confusing. |
"We"? I don't believe the acquisition of a diploma qualifies one as fit to do anything, be it acting or running the country. Our higher education system is more based upon keeping liberal teachers employed than in actually educating students.
Ronald Reagan was a man of vision and guts, and was quite unpopular with the isolationist segment of our country (those who protest involvement in any world affairs are only a portion of this segment in my estimation), very similar to the way this portion of our nation treats George W. Bush.
Akronn, how old were you in 1983? Five?
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Rennol
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 3741
Location: Charleston, IL
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 11:48 Post subject:
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Frax are you trying to give Bush props? =P Bush is single-handedly responsible for our "moral downfall". I cannot wait to excercise my rights as a citizen in 2004 by voting for whatever candidate opposes him. =D.
Btw, anyone think its retarded how hardly anyone votes? Out of all the people at my job in 2000 only I and the manager voted (he's like 38, the rest of the people are my age, around 21). Young people in this country don't think its worthwhile. Hell none of my rooommates even voted, I think they are retarded. Anyways. =D
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Akronn
Guest
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Posted: 03/24/03 - 11:51 Post subject:
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For the first time in my life, I'll be exercising my right to vote in 2004.
And you can bet your ass I'm not voting for Bush. The man is going down, my friends.
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