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Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
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 Posted: 02/24/05 - 15:52 Post subject:
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| Soriak wrote: |
Considering how murder cases in the US aren't any rarer than in european countries, one can reasonably conclude that the death penalty doesn't serve as a deterrant.
Sure, the legal system is not only supposed to deterr, but also to punish - but one could argue that life in prison is much more a punishment than getting executed. |
Nothing is a deterrent to murder. No lawful punishment will ever deter someone bent on murder.
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Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 15:54 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: |
Beyond that they need to remove cable TV, remove weight rooms and build bigger libraries in prison and bring back chain gangs. Forced labor, basic cardiovascular exercise, and reading are all prisoners should be allowed. Let them work, and instead of paying them, use the proceeds to pay for their own room and board. You commit a crime, you forfeit all but your most basic rights to food and freedom from torture - f**k the criminals. |
I agree. But how to get the cigarettes out of prison without starting full-scale riots...
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Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 1179
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 15:56 Post subject:
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| Soriak wrote: | | This only applies to cases where DNA evidence has been recovered though. In many cases DNA evidence is either non existent or misleading. Say you have a woman murdered, and you find out who had **** with her that night - does that make him the killer? Maybe not, but if there's no other suspect, he might find himself a defendant, and possibly a death row candidate. |
| Soriak wrote: | | It's not - but it can proof someone else comitted the murder, at least as long as his DNA is in the database due to some other crime he comitted. |
Hmmm....these statements are slightly contradictory. If DNA testing can give misleading results, as you are arguing, it can work both ways. If conclusive DNA evidence can wrongly put an innocent person in jail, it could also wrongly free a guilty criminal.
If we are truly wrongfully convicting people of crimes, then the solution is not to change the penitentiary system. You solve a problem by treating it's cause...in this case, our courts and the justice system that convicts these people needs to be examined.
As Vekril correctly stated, prison is intended to be a punishment. While rehabilitation should be available and encouraged for those willing, it cannot be forced. The unwilling cannot be rehabilitated. Idiotic 'slippery slope' arguments aside, there is nothing cruel and unusual about taking away people's luxuries. We certainly shouldn't be providing them with luxuries that are not also provided to those outside prisons.
On a side note, I've always found it interesting that when people talk about how hard prison is, they always talk about the other inmates. It's unfortunate that they don't see the irony in that.
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Silvermouse
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 11015
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 15:59 Post subject:
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| Occulis wrote: | http://www.prisonsucks.com/
Interesting site |
| Quote: | South Africa under Apartheid was internationally condemned as a racist society.
* South Africa under apartheid (1993), Black males: 851 per 100,000
* U.S. under George Bush (2003), Black males: 4,834 per 100,000
What does it mean that the leader of the "free world" locks up its Black males at a rate 5.7 times higher than the most openly racist country in the world? |
It means that black males in America were committing lots of crimes?
You can't compare black people in America to black people in South Africa. There are huge, fundamental differences in culture!
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Yabden
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 2485
Location: Ohio
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 17:47 Post subject:
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I am all for the killing of murderers who have witnesses or undeniable proff against them. And none of this death row b******t, stand them against a wall and f*****g shoot them.
I live in town with a prison where they use lethal injection on people, its fun whenever they do it to drive by and yell at all the hippies who think it is wrong.
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Overon
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 3602
Location: PLANE OF PIXIES
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 18:26 Post subject:
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I'd be all for the death penalty if our justice system didn't suck.
But oops. It does.
Mostly because the people who can't get out of jury duty are dumb.
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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 18:57 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: | | I don't see how a few people being cleared by DNA equals that 'large numbers of innocent people are convicted of capital crimes'. We simply are not incarcerating people on murder and putting them on death row in any rate commensurate with the murder rate. In short the legal and law enforcement situations in this country are f****d. |
The death penalty is irrevocable and final, it can't be undone or compensated. For that reason, it only needs *one*, *single* error to throw the whole idea in the toilet. It is that simple possibility that makes it unfeasible.
And for Vekril, if the system is so damn perfect why would *any* appeal be needed.
Regards,
Eduin
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Eduin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1046
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 19:03 Post subject:
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| Nuldaan wrote: | Hmmm....these statements are slightly contradictory. If DNA testing can give misleading results, as you are arguing, it can work both ways. If conclusive DNA evidence can wrongly put an innocent person in jail, it could also wrongly free a guilty criminal.
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Which is irrelevant. It is up to the prosecutor to prove *beyond reasonable doubt*. Any inconclusiveness in the nature of evidence provides just that - doubt.
Regards,
Eduin
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 19:06 Post subject:
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I hate the long wait for executions; they suck up money when they could just walk out back and get shot and be done with it.
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 19:09 Post subject:
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There are people who will rob, assault and murder simply so they don't have to work a 40hr a week job they might actually enjoy. There's no way around it, but I don't think prison is the answer. It will be nice when criminals can be reprogrammed via nanobots (or whatever else is available) to perform manual labor, or act as medical test subjects. Too bad so few women commit crimes - we could force them into housewife lives!
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 19:13 Post subject:
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| Eduin wrote: | | Frax wrote: | | I don't see how a few people being cleared by DNA equals that 'large numbers of innocent people are convicted of capital crimes'. We simply are not incarcerating people on murder and putting them on death row in any rate commensurate with the murder rate. In short the legal and law enforcement situations in this country are f****d. |
The death penalty is irrevocable and final, it can't be undone or compensated. For that reason, it only needs *one*, *single* error to throw the whole idea in the toilet. It is that simple possibility that makes it unfeasible.
And for Vekril, if the system is so damn perfect why would *any* appeal be needed.
Regards,
Eduin |
Sorry but there isn't a huge difference in my mind between life in prison and execution other than the cost to the taxpayers. Curoius to see if there are statistics on those charged with "Murder" who end up with a guilty plea to manslaughter or negligent homicide in the end. I'm going to guess that will be a significant percentage. Granted I'd rather have these people in prison than free. Keeping a broken, not productive to society human being in captivity for 30, 40, 50 or longer years is a burden that I'd rather my tax monies weren't being spent on.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 19:14 Post subject:
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| Occulis wrote: | | There are people who will rob, assault and murder simply so they don't have to work a 40hr a week job they might actually enjoy. There's no way around it, but I don't think prison is the answer. It will be nice when criminals can be reprogrammed via nanobots (or whatever else is available) to perform manual labor, or act as medical test subjects. Too bad so few women commit crimes - we could force them into housewife lives! |
I love chain gangs! ;P
They should pay for themselves by all being forced to work for the public.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 19:18 Post subject:
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| Yabden wrote: | I am all for the killing of murderers who have witnesses or undeniable proff against them. And none of this death row b******t, stand them against a wall and f*****g shoot them.
I live in town with a prison where they use lethal injection on people, its fun whenever they do it to drive by and yell at all the hippies who think it is wrong. |
thats the problem with monder legal systems in our society. You can have physical evidence of the person being at the scene, you can have the victims blood in their vehicle (Hi O.J.!), and all the defense has to do is put up the thinnest of threads of doubt in the jury's minds and suddenly all of the physical evidence is overwhelmed. They find the person 'not guilty' (not innocent however..) and they get off. It's a shame.
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Overon
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 3602
Location: PLANE OF PIXIES
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 19:20 Post subject:
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doesn't anyone realize how useless witnesses can be?
can someone back me up here on how the testimony of a witness can be totally off?
or has no one studied this at all?
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 19:21 Post subject:
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I am for the death penalty as we impliment it currently. The purpose of the lethal injection is to remove the person from the planet because they have demonstrated no redeeming qualities worth preserving. Lethal injection is likely the most painless way for any person to die which clearly demonstrates that it isn't inflicted for the sake of pain. The death penalty allows us to remedy prisoners that already have a life sentence and will continue to kill other prisoners with impunity, or lifers that continue to disrupt the outside world even while incarcerated. It's too bad that the death penalty can't be expanded to include brutal rapes, and assaults/attempted murders that maim or seriously disfigure the victims. A serial killer cut off a girl's arms in Arizona about 15 years ago and left her in the middle of the desert to die after raping her. He's currently free and that girl will never recover. There's also the fact that murderers will only serve ~7 years because of crowding.
Texas is in the process of taking legislative efforts to streamline appeals and put some deathrow inmates on the 'express lane'. The only problem is they want to use eye witness testimony as the criteria to hasten the process when eye witness testimony is remarkedly unreliably unless you knew the person before hand. If a murder is caught on tape or there is finger prints in blood judges should be allowed to bypass the appeal process or atleast truncate it to 1 appeal instead of 3-9. Multiple appeals is the only reason it's atleast twice as expensive to execute a person rather than incarcerate them for life.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 19:33 Post subject:
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| Overon wrote: | doesn't anyone realize how useless witnesses can be?
can someone back me up here on how the testimony of a witness can be totally off?
or has no one studied this at all? |
Back you up how? People tell their version of events (and i'm sure some lie obviously either to protect themself or someone they care about), but it comes down to what the jury believes after seein all of the witnesses and listening to the lawyers arguments. Thats why it is so easy to put doubt into the jury's mind.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 19:55 Post subject:
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| Frax wrote: | | Overon wrote: | doesn't anyone realize how useless witnesses can be?
can someone back me up here on how the testimony of a witness can be totally off?
or has no one studied this at all? |
Back you up how? People tell their version of events (and i'm sure some lie obviously either to protect themself or someone they care about), but it comes down to what the jury believes after seein all of the witnesses and listening to the lawyers arguments. Thats why it is so easy to put doubt into the jury's mind. |
eye witnesses to brutal crimes are going to be filled with adrenaline and depending on the murder they maybe more concerned with their own safety than getting a good look. The other part is some people just don't have good facial recognition and recall. The actual face can be distorted by memory, fear, time, eye sight, intoxication, and by the actions of the police or those around you. An eye witness may pick out a face that is similiar and will admantly claim that's the person, when in actuallity hundreds of thousands of other people would be fingered as guilty if they were to be placed in the same line up. Juries have often convicted minorities and subsequently sentenced them to death, based only on a single eye witness account with little to no corroboration. Eye witness's are given the same credability and presumption of infallibility as DNA or finger prints, and it almost always results in an indigent defendant with a newbie lawyer being convicted.
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Ashley
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Amfek.org
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 22:58 Post subject:
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my biggest problem with the justice system is the vast difference between the trial of a millionaire and the trial of someone under the poverty line. They get a *much* better lawyer, that a DA will often have trouble even competing with- essentially buying their freedom/lesser sentence. On the other hand, someone with no money has only an underpaid, overworked public attorney that is likely fresh out of law school. This accounts for part of why there are so many more minorities in prison than others. First, they live in poorer areas where crime is more common, and second they cant defend themselves as well as someone who has money.
I'm kinda in the middle when it comes to the death penalty in general, but where I definately disagree with it are the cases where the death penalty comes up for minors- thats where i tend to disagree. If anyone has a chance at rehabilitation its someone who is still young.
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kbarr
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 11239
Location: New York, now go fuck off...
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 23:00 Post subject:
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| Ashley wrote: | my biggest problem with the justice system is the vast difference between the trial of a millionaire and the trial of someone under the poverty line. They get a *much* better lawyer, that a DA will often have trouble even competing with- essentially buying their freedom/lesser sentence. On the other hand, someone with no money has only an underpaid, overworked public attorney that is likely fresh out of law school. This accounts for part of why there are so many more minorities in prison than others. First, they live in poorer areas where crime is more common, and second they cant defend themselves as well as someone who has money.
I'm kinda in the middle when it comes to the death penalty in general, but where I definately disagree with it are the cases where the death penalty comes up for minors- thats where i tend to disagree. If anyone has a chance at rehabilitation its someone who is still young. |
What are you upset about? That the people with money might get away with a crime? Or that the people with no money will go to jail for their crimes?
Hmm?
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Overon
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 3602
Location: PLANE OF PIXIES
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 23:05 Post subject:
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everyone who is accused of a crime is obviously guilty
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kbarr
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 11239
Location: New York, now go fuck off...
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 23:10 Post subject:
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| Overon wrote: | | everyone who is accused of a crime is obviously guilty |
Not everyone.
Most people.
Odds are, if someone says you stabbed them. Chances are, you did stab them. You would have to have done it for a living to truly understand that most people accused of crimes are actually guilty of said crimes.
Remember, no one in jail is guilty. Everyone knows that.
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 23:19 Post subject:
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| Kbarr wrote: | | Overon wrote: | | everyone who is accused of a crime is obviously guilty |
Not everyone.
Most people.
Odds are, if someone says you stabbed them. Chances are, you did stab them. You would have to have done it for a living to truly understand that most people accused of crimes are actually guilty of said crimes.
Remember, no one in jail is guilty. Everyone knows that. |
He's right, roughly 93% of people charged with a crime actually commited it. White children who commit crimes are less likely to be charged tho, as compared to minority children that commit the same 'youthful indiscretion'. The upsetting portion is reasonable doubt is on a sliding scale directly proportional to money and innocent minorities and guilty rich people rarely get the justice or vindication they deserve. And I'm sorry for quoting you, now complain about something else old man 
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Ashley
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Amfek.org
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 23:21 Post subject:
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| Kbarr wrote: | | Ashley wrote: | my biggest problem with the justice system is the vast difference between the trial of a millionaire and the trial of someone under the poverty line. They get a *much* better lawyer, that a DA will often have trouble even competing with- essentially buying their freedom/lesser sentence. On the other hand, someone with no money has only an underpaid, overworked public attorney that is likely fresh out of law school. This accounts for part of why there are so many more minorities in prison than others. First, they live in poorer areas where crime is more common, and second they cant defend themselves as well as someone who has money.
I'm kinda in the middle when it comes to the death penalty in general, but where I definately disagree with it are the cases where the death penalty comes up for minors- thats where i tend to disagree. If anyone has a chance at rehabilitation its someone who is still young. |
What are you upset about? That the people with money might get away with a crime? Or that the people with no money will go to jail for their crimes?
Hmm? |
that often if you are rich and guilty you can get away with something, whereas if you are poor and innocent you end up in jail because of shit for defense.
I dont know what i would do to change this, if I would do anything at all- its just something to consider when you look at the death penalty. The vast majority of those executed are poor minorities, and it is partially because of their bad defenses.
Its just something to think about... thank gideon at least for his part, but our system is far from looking at each case equally- is this bad? not necessarily. should it be changed? probably not- but as someone on the fence about the death penalty, its just something to consider.
I also agree with Kbarr that solitude confinement is more of a punishment than lethal injection- for the most heinous of crimes it would probably be more suiting.
We should have a realpoor movie night... shawshank redemption anyone?
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Qaldyin
Sir Postalot
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1346
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 23:29 Post subject:
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I agree that life with no parole is definately a better punishment than the death sentence. I actually did a research project on the cost of life vs death pen and the figures lean more toward life. It costs less to keep someone in prison for life, than the 8 or so years they keep you in death row. Could be possible that the site I visited had b******t figures tho...
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.:RBlue
Fresh Meat
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Delray Beac FL
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 23:43 Post subject:
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ya i agree
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Ashley
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Amfek.org
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 23:53 Post subject:
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| .:RBlue wrote: | | ya i agree |
who are you?
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r00typooh
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 5178
Location: Miami, FL
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Posted: 02/24/05 - 23:54 Post subject:
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he's rblue
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lauren000
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 3510
Location: colorado springs
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Posted: 02/25/05 - 00:04 Post subject:
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Pass a law stating a defendant of a capitol offense with a court appointed attorney, must be represented by council that has practiced law for atleast 5 years and has defended or prosecuted atleast one capitol case. Bare minimum standards like that would prevent innocent individuals from being convicted and the bar (no pun intended) wouldn't be raised enough to allow the reasonably guilty to escape.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 02/25/05 - 00:37 Post subject:
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