Can I get the Christian take on this please?

lauren000 wrote:

Akronn wrote: Mugaaz wrote: A true athiest holds nothing sacred whatsoever that doesn't help him achieve the means to his ends, and their only end would be self gratifying goals. LMAO. No, just no. hypothetically- You have the opportunity to steal something or kill someone, and no one will notice it, know about it, nor care. What stops you from doing it if you want to? If you have no belief in judgement day, then why should you care about what 'right' and 'wrong' are when it best suits you?

This question is incredibly stupid.

If no one is harmed then it's ok by both ways... but that is never the case so it's stupid. Hedonism has been disproved again and again, you can be harmed by things that do not directly interact with you.

If a man cheats on his wife for the 30 years they're married and then his wife dies without ever knowing about it is her quality of life less than it could have been?

Anyway you're all f*****g idiots, go take some first year philosophy or slit your wrists or something holy shit...

Spink wrote:

You can't go around redefining words to suit your argument Mugaaz. Hey, none of you are truly christian, where are the sacrifices of livestock? Come on real christias would drop giant rocks on gay people and get eaten by whales, you're just a piece of shit wannabe.

All that stuff is Old Testament stuff. It's the Jews that practice the Old Testament. Jews are not Christian.

The New Testament is the basis for the Christian faith with the Old Testament more as a series of history and teachings that are very significant but not the basis of the doctrine.

Clevinger wrote:

Spink wrote: You can't go around redefining words to suit your argument Mugaaz. Hey, none of you are truly christian, where are the sacrifices of livestock? Come on real christias would drop giant rocks on gay people and get eaten by whales, you're just a piece of shit wannabe. All that stuff is Old Testament stuff. It's the Jews that practice the Old Testament. Jews are not Christian. The New Testament is the basis for the Christian faith with the Old Testament more as a series of history and teachings that are very significant but not the basis of the doctrine.

How does this change anything? I hardly see you as a "helpful correcting of facts just to be nice" kind of guy, change the word christian to jewish and it still stands.

What are you talking about?

You made a completely irrelevant statement and I corrected you. I'm not Jewish so I don't know why they practice the Old Testament or if they even do that.

WTG

Clevinger wrote:

What are you talking about? You made a completely irrelevant statement and I corrected you. WTG

Congrats on not realising I was showing how stupid mugaaz's pathetic definition changing argument is. Thanks for continuing to prove my point.

Sure bud.

lauren000 wrote:

You have the opportunity to steal something or kill someone, and no one will notice it, know about it, nor care. What stops you from doing it if you want to? If you have no belief in judgement day, then why should you care about what 'right' and 'wrong' are when it best suits you?

I respect people's right to live, respect their property, etc.

What's right and wrong is fairly basic and it's sad commentary on our species that so many people need the spectre of a diety looking over their shoulder to prompt them into acting accordingly.

Is it all about selfishness? Forget killing this person because it's wrong, I'll pass because I wanna go to heaven!

seriously, you can have a set of values and morals without having something to enforce them, your a weak person if you cant do that, it doesnt take a strong person to be afraid of some giant all powerful being punishing them for being bad, it doesnt take a strong person to say there is no divine being and then doing whatever the hell they want, it takes a strong person to say there is no divine being who will punish me but I will be good all the same of my own free will...

Clevinger wrote:

Do you think that once you become a Christian that all bad things automatically stop happening to you? If this was the case I'm pretty sure most people on the planet would be Christian. I think it is pretty naive to think like that. God doesn't promise to protect you from bad or evil things. He does promise you his presence and strength to help you cope and deal with misfortune though. I do believe that things happen for a reason though, sometimes it's just pretty tough to figure out what that reason is.

Tolanin wrote:

seriously, you can have a set of values and morals without having something to enforce them, your a weak person if you cant do that, it doesnt take a strong person to be afraid of some giant all powerful being punishing them for being bad, it doesnt take a strong person to say there is no divine being and then doing whatever the hell they want, it takes a strong person to say there is no divine being who will punish me but I will be good all the same of my own free will...

where is the orgin of your values? what is the orgin of what you think is right and wrong? Is it not a carbon copy of judaism?

My values reflect what I believe to be a good way to live in a community and function well.. some of my values are reflected in judaism some are not, some are my own. However I do not believe there is any god to enforce them if i chose to not follow them.

My general view on organised religion is that it evolved so that ancient man could have some way of explaining things that they did not understand. Every single culture on the planet has some form of higher power in its history. They are all different. One thing that all these ancient societies share is they had some form of moral code that defined right and wrong. These moral codes didn't grow out of the religions or beliefs they were incorperated into them. Humans are a naturaly social animal. Any society will form its own moral code, it doesn't need religion for this.

As such I don't see how you can use the argument that following the morals of society prevents you from 'truly' being athiest. A person who is athiest to the truest sence of the word is someone who does not believe in a supreme being who has power over the world through will and not technology. Belief and toyalty towards one's country and people is not the same as belief in a higher being.

Agnostic people believe in the posibility that there may be some kind of higher power out there but they do not believe that any formal religion is correct in how it defines this power.

They worshipped on Sunday so they were not actually Christians. They were confused/ decieved wannabe Christians that still followed Catholic laws and doctrine. They continually break the ten Commandments by knowingly following the traditions and laws of men rather than the laws of God.

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because of the Catholic Church, in the Council of Loadicea (A.D. 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” – Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 2d edition, 1910.

"They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, say they, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments." – Augsburg Confession, Art. XXVIII.

"It is quite clear that, however rigidly or devoutly we may spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath…The Sabbath was founded on a specific, divine command. We can plead no such command for the obligation to observe Sunday…There is not a single sentence in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday." R.W. Dale, M.A. (Congregationalist), The Ten Commandments, pp 106, 107. London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1871.

"We Catholics, then, have precisely the same authority for keeping Sunday holy, instead of Saturday, as we have every other article of our creed: namely, the authority of "the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15); whereas, you who are protestants have really no authority for it whatever; for there is no authority for it in the Bible, and you will not allow that there can be authority for it anywhere else. Both you and we do, in fact, follow tradition in this matter; but we follow it, believing it to be a part of God's word and the church to be it's divinely appointed guardian and interpreter; you follow it, denouncing it all the time as a fallible and treacherous guide, which often "makes the commandment of God of none effect." "Clifton Tracts, vol. 4, article, "A Question for All Bible Christians," p. 15.

"You are a Protestant, and you profess to go by the Bible and the Bible only; and yet in so important a matter as the observance of one day in seven as a holy day, you go against the plain letter of the Bible, and put another day in the place of that day which the Bible has commanded. The command to keep holy the seventh day is one of the Ten Commandments; you believe that the other nine are still binding; who gave you authority to tamper with the fourth? If you are consistent with your own principles, if you really follow the Bible and the Bible only, you ought to be able to produce some portion of the New Testament in which the fourth commandment is expressly altered." –Library of Christian Doctrine: Why Don't you Keep Holy the Sabbath Day? pp. 3, 4. London: Burns and Oats (R.C.).

"The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday. We say by virtue of her divine mission, because He who called Himself the "Lord of the Sabbath," endowed her with His own power to teach., "he that heareth you, heareth Me"; commanded all who believe in Him to hear her, under penalty of being placed with the "heathen and publican"; and promised to be with her to the end of the world. She holds her charter as teacher from Him – a charter as infallible as perpetual. The Protestant world at its birth [in the Reformation of the sixteenth century] found the Christian Sabbath to strongly entrenched to run counter to its existence; it was therefore placed under the necessity of acquiescing in the arrangement, thus implying the church's right to change the day, for over three hundred years. The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church as spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the Protestant world." – The Catholic Mirror (Baltimore), Sept. 23, 1893.

"Finally at the last opening on the eighteenth of January, 1562, all hesitation was set aside: the Archbishop of Reggio made a speech in which he openly declared that tradition stood above Scripture. The authority of the church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the Church has changed…the Sabbath into Sunday, not by the command of Christ, but by its own authority."

They weren't Christians I say.

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Revelation 14:12.

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17.

Note: The dragon here represents the devil. The woman is God's church and the "remnant" of the woman's seed is the latter end of the church. The remnant are identified by two characteristics: they are commandment keepers and they have the "testimony of Jesus" which is interpreted to be the "spirit of prophecy" in Revelation 19:10.

A question as well.
"Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15.

its the thought that counts!

I don't understand people that have no religion as much as people who don't have any religion don't understand me. How do you explain creation?
How do I explain creation? God. If you tell me that you think that guy with the afro painted the skies I'll be even more confused about your views.
I think it all boils down to how things happen in your life and how you explain them. I honestly don't think I'm psycho because I believe in God. I think it makes perfect sense.
A book that would perfectly suit this argument is "The Fingerprint of God" by Hugh Ross. He's a scientist that became a Christian after studying science and proving there's a God without that having been his initial intent. He explicitly proves with scientific facts how God exists-- A good read regardless if you can handle what's in it or not.
Also might want to check out the website:
http://www.reasons.org/index.shtml

He explicity proves the existence of god?

Breeze wrote:

I don't understand people that have no religion as much as people who don't have any religion don't understand me. How do you explain creation? How do I explain creation? God. If you tell me that you think that guy with the afro painted the skies I'll be even more confused about your views. I think it all boils down to how things happen in your life and how you explain them. I honestly don't think I'm psycho because I believe in God. I think it makes perfect sense. A book that would perfectly suit this argument is "The Fingerprint of God" by Hugh Ross. He's a scientist that became a Christian after studying science and proving there's a God without that having been his initial intent. He explicitly proves with scientific facts how God exists-- A good read regardless if you can handle what's in it or not. Also might want to check out the website: http://www.reasons.org/index.shtml

Please answer this simple question: How can you(a christian) be so naive as to think that "your" religion is THE right one? All the other religions in this world are wrong then? if you answer no to this(and you being a christian), then you arent true to your religion. If you answer yes, then i just laugh. you can call it whatever you want:God, Buddah, Allah. its the same thing, different names.

while we are on this topic, do most of you christians here take the bible stories word by word? ie, did Noah's arc really exist? was that whole story true or was it just a story we are supposed to interpret? inside the christian world, there is mass confusion regarding all these "stories". thats why you have people making their own "sub" christanities:baptists, lutheran, catholic, presbetarian, etc. the list doesnt end. In other big(popular) religions, there is a solid backbone without these "sub" areas.

Actually, Dr. Ross is repeatedly proven wrong.

Just think. You people all fall into the 17+ age bracket, and you all (for the most part) still have a Boogy Man!

isn't that wonderful?

"No one is guaranteed tomorrow." It says that in the Bible. I would explain more but I'm not going to waste time discussing it here. hehe =p

Thats a sad story though.

(This is Tura btw. Buntz account is stuck on this computer.)