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Kurel
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1877
Location: Cali
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 Posted: 09/10/04 - 22:37 Post subject:
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That is indeed a **** shotgun.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 22:40 Post subject:
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| Yabden wrote: | 
omg I love shotguns so much |
Same here though I have never really been into tactical shotguns.
Only one I have in my house atm is my Model 11-87 Premier.
Eats venison for a snack every year.
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Ashley
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Amfek.org
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 23:04 Post subject:
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No one answered my questions still- a PM would work too- im just curious and would like to understand this topic better... ive typically been neutral about it, leaning slightly right, but before i develop an opinion i would like to hear both sides of the arguments first-hand... This is your chance to shape the views of a young and impressionable teenager! (and yes i know its sad, but i do shape them through debates... I'll talk to someone (ie.. my mom) about political stuff, and whatever opinion she has ill play devils advocate and argue the other side as best i can and over time (and arguments from both sides) i slowly decide which side i personally believe is more justifiable/logical/right- and then if i learn more im open to change (just as slowly though) and the process continues for as long as theres someone to argue with  ...aannnnd... since my mom has started to become crazy-wayfarleft-liberal and annoying to argue with (plus i always win.. which is no fun and benefits me in no way/shape/form) I'm depending on everyone else (school, friends, adults, teachers, mtv, books, news and the internet... scary huh?) to expose me to different viewpoints more than ever! fun stuff
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Spitulski
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 4344
Location: Washington
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 23:08 Post subject:
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Shotgun - ****.
M4 203 - looks remarkably like the setup on the AR about 10 feet away from me.
When I turn 21. Oh, that "small" gun under it is a 629 .44 mag.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 09/10/04 - 23:27 Post subject:
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| hunnybunny wrote: | | No one answered my questions still- a PM would work too- im just curious and would like to understand this topic better... ive typically been neutral about it, leaning slightly right, but before i develop an opinion i would like to hear both sides of the arguments first-hand... This is your chance to shape the views of a young and impressionable teenager! (and yes i know its sad, but i do shape them through debates... I'll talk to someone (ie.. my mom) about political stuff, and whatever opinion she has ill play devils advocate and argue the other side as best i can and over time (and arguments from both sides) i slowly decide which side i personally believe is more justifiable/logical/right- and then if i learn more im open to change (just as slowly though) and the process continues for as long as theres someone to argue with ...aannnnd... since my mom has started to become crazy-wayfarleft-liberal and annoying to argue with (plus i always win.. which is no fun and benefits me in no way/shape/form) I'm depending on everyone else (school, friends, adults, teachers, mtv, books, news and the internet... scary huh?) to expose me to different viewpoints more than ever! fun stuff |
Well my side(right wing nut-jobs)sees the right to have full auto/assault weapons as necessary for the possible "revolution" whether that be civil or global. The left/liberals see the legal ability to own heavy firepower as a danger to everyone. My best unbiased answer for you(using common sense) is there may not be a need for full auto/assault weapons now and possibly ever, but keeping them out of lawful citizens hands will not stop someone who wants them to break the law. If you are already making plans to go on a shooting spree would you really care if your gun was legal?
As for self defense in every day life full auto/assault weapons aren't needed and most likely wouldn't be the weapon of choice anyway, a simple handgun gets the job done. IMO there would be less crime if it was a widely known fact that 99/100 people you want to attack, rob, or rape had a weapon on them.
And one last thing..full auto weapons are just sooo much fun to shoot. I've been lucky enough to enjoy a M60 on several occasions and MAN it is a blast.
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Ashley
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Amfek.org
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 00:01 Post subject:
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| Scrabler wrote: | | hunnybunny wrote: | | No one answered my questions still- a PM would work too- im just curious and would like to understand this topic better... ive typically been neutral about it, leaning slightly right, but before i develop an opinion i would like to hear both sides of the arguments first-hand... This is your chance to shape the views of a young and impressionable teenager! (and yes i know its sad, but i do shape them through debates... I'll talk to someone (ie.. my mom) about political stuff, and whatever opinion she has ill play devils advocate and argue the other side as best i can and over time (and arguments from both sides) i slowly decide which side i personally believe is more justifiable/logical/right- and then if i learn more im open to change (just as slowly though) and the process continues for as long as theres someone to argue with ...aannnnd... since my mom has started to become crazy-wayfarleft-liberal and annoying to argue with (plus i always win.. which is no fun and benefits me in no way/shape/form) I'm depending on everyone else (school, friends, adults, teachers, mtv, books, news and the internet... scary huh?) to expose me to different viewpoints more than ever! fun stuff |
Well my side(right wing nut-jobs)sees the right to have full auto/assault weapons as necessary for the possible "revolution" whether that be civil or global. The left/liberals see the legal ability to own heavy firepower as a danger to everyone. My best unbiased answer for you(using common sense) is there may not be a need for full auto/assault weapons now and possibly ever, but keeping them out of lawful citizens hands will not stop someone who wants them to break the law. If you are already making plans to go on a shooting spree would you really care if your gun was legal?
As for self defense in every day life full auto/assault weapons aren't needed and most likely wouldn't be the weapon of choice anyway, a simple handgun gets the job done. IMO there would be less crime if it was a widely known fact that 99/100 people you want to attack, rob, or rape had a weapon on them.
And one last thing..full auto weapons are just sooo much fun to shoot. I've been lucky enough to enjoy a M60 on several occasions and MAN it is a blast. |
ok, so it sounds like it depends on whether you think there will be some ominous revolution in the future that you would need these weapons? I guess im just in a sheltered area that would be the last place anyone would attack (at least i think), so from my standpoint this seems impractical. I do see what you're saying about criminals probably having a decent black market for them already, but that black market availablility will expand when the weapons become legally accessible (though i guess most mass-murderers who need these things will somehow find the money/resources to get them regardless of easy availability).
As far as the 99/100 people being armed thing goes.. i cant see it rising over 60/100, but even that would prove your point. I agree that a level-headed criminal would think twice under those circumstances, but i would think that in non-premeditated fights where two people just get p****d at each other, or stuff like drunken brawls could go from black eyes to bullet wounds (and this wouldnt be assault rifles, just everyone having a weapon). I'm not sure if overall it would lessen crime/deaths from guns.. i think it would moreso reallocate the violence from muggings, rapes, etc and move to the all-of-a-sudden-someone-gets-really-p****d and now has a gun with them fights (whether the one would lessen very significantly while the other only rose slightly or not is the question ).
But back to the assault weapons thing, i guess i just dont get it because i wouldnt own one- even in the event of your revolution scenario i would picture myself more hiding from the fights/helping in the back than on the front lines with a gun- maybe im just a girly wimp that would crumble in a war-like situation (which is why they shouldnt ever draft women who dont enlist! Psychologically we have more trouble killing someone than most men do), but when i think of a situation like that i think more of movies than real life- it seems surreal to me.
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Aeain
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1973
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 00:06 Post subject:
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I know someone that is ready to drop $150 on 15 round magazines for his Berreta.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 00:27 Post subject:
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| hunnybunny wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: | | hunnybunny wrote: | | No one answered my questions still- a PM would work too- im just curious and would like to understand this topic better... ive typically been neutral about it, leaning slightly right, but before i develop an opinion i would like to hear both sides of the arguments first-hand... This is your chance to shape the views of a young and impressionable teenager! (and yes i know its sad, but i do shape them through debates... I'll talk to someone (ie.. my mom) about political stuff, and whatever opinion she has ill play devils advocate and argue the other side as best i can and over time (and arguments from both sides) i slowly decide which side i personally believe is more justifiable/logical/right- and then if i learn more im open to change (just as slowly though) and the process continues for as long as theres someone to argue with ...aannnnd... since my mom has started to become crazy-wayfarleft-liberal and annoying to argue with (plus i always win.. which is no fun and benefits me in no way/shape/form) I'm depending on everyone else (school, friends, adults, teachers, mtv, books, news and the internet... scary huh?) to expose me to different viewpoints more than ever! fun stuff |
Well my side(right wing nut-jobs)sees the right to have full auto/assault weapons as necessary for the possible "revolution" whether that be civil or global. The left/liberals see the legal ability to own heavy firepower as a danger to everyone. My best unbiased answer for you(using common sense) is there may not be a need for full auto/assault weapons now and possibly ever, but keeping them out of lawful citizens hands will not stop someone who wants them to break the law. If you are already making plans to go on a shooting spree would you really care if your gun was legal?
As for self defense in every day life full auto/assault weapons aren't needed and most likely wouldn't be the weapon of choice anyway, a simple handgun gets the job done. IMO there would be less crime if it was a widely known fact that 99/100 people you want to attack, rob, or rape had a weapon on them.
And one last thing..full auto weapons are just sooo much fun to shoot. I've been lucky enough to enjoy a M60 on several occasions and MAN it is a blast. |
ok, so it sounds like it depends on whether you think there will be some ominous revolution in the future that you would need these weapons? I guess im just in a sheltered area that would be the last place anyone would attack (at least i think), so from my standpoint this seems impractical. I do see what you're saying about criminals probably having a decent black market for them already, but that black market availablility will expand when the weapons become legally accessible (though i guess most mass-murderers who need these things will somehow find the money/resources to get them regardless of easy availability).
As far as the 99/100 people being armed thing goes.. i cant see it rising over 60/100, but even that would prove your point. I agree that a level-headed criminal would think twice under those circumstances, but i would think that in non-premeditated fights where two people just get p****d at each other, or stuff like drunken brawls could go from black eyes to bullet wounds (and this wouldnt be assault rifles, just everyone having a weapon). I'm not sure if overall it would lessen crime/deaths from guns.. i think it would moreso reallocate the violence from muggings, rapes, etc and move to the all-of-a-sudden-someone-gets-really-p****d and now has a gun with them fights (whether the one would lessen very significantly while the other only rose slightly or not is the question ).
But back to the assault weapons thing, i guess i just dont get it because i wouldnt own one- even in the event of your revolution scenario i would picture myself more hiding from the fights/helping in the back than on the front lines with a gun- maybe im just a girly wimp that would crumble in a war-like situation (which is why they shouldnt ever draft women who dont enlist! Psychologically we have more trouble killing someone than most men do), but when i think of a situation like that i think more of movies than real life- it seems surreal to me. |
Well, as for the availability of legal full auto weapons..that won't really effect the criminal black market much if any IMO. It's cheaper to buy a completely illegal weapon in most cases and an illegal gun won't be entered into FBI files.
Yeah, 99/100 people was just an exxageration and the real numbers will never be that high, but my point still works.
Nothing wrong with being afraid of war hehe I'm sure everyone but the crazy muslim fanactics are to some extent. When I think of a situation where I am fighting for our freedom in my own neighborhood it isn't surreal for me, though it is frightening. My mindset is pretty different in that aspect than yours though as I am centering my life around preparing myself to go off to war in the next 2 years when I enlist.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 00:27 Post subject:
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| Aeain wrote: | | I know someone that is ready to drop $150 on 15 round magazines for his Berreta. |
Hell yeah..just sucks it costs that much.
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Ashley
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Amfek.org
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 00:51 Post subject:
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| Scrabler wrote: | | Well, as for the availability of legal full auto weapons..that won't really effect the criminal black market much if any IMO. It's cheaper to buy a completely illegal weapon in most cases and an illegal gun won't be entered into FBI files. |
ok, that does make sense, I'm not very familiar with how easy/hard it is to get these type of weapons on the black market (i was under the impression that things like handguns, regular rifles, etc were easy to attain, but assault weapons were harder.. i did admit i didnt know much about this when i came into this topic didnt i?  )
| scrabler wrote: | | Nothing wrong with being afraid of war hehe I'm sure everyone but the crazy muslim fanactics are to some extent. When I think of a situation where I am fighting for our freedom in my own neighborhood it isn't surreal for me, though it is frightening. My mindset is pretty different in that aspect than yours though as I am centering my life around preparing myself to go off to war in the next 2 years when I enlist. |
Okay, so you are definately coming from a completely different perspective than me. I can see owning an assault weapon as a lot more logical if you're planning to join the army. I can understand that- but what about your average joe who is a cashier at the grocery store? Does he necessarily have use for a highly-damaging weapon? And i still cannot picture anyone going to open-war with us and attacking neighborhoods across the country like it sounds like you are picturing. I say that because they would have no chance- it would be a stupid move.. Anyone who openly comes out against us in a clear location would be crushed. Look at the Iraqi army when we were at war. They were openly at war with us for what? 3 days? These people resort to terrorism because they have no other way to get us- they cant accomplish anything against us any other way than hiding and attacking soft targets or suicide bombing.
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Domination
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 565
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 01:13 Post subject:
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| hunnybunny wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: | | Well, as for the availability of legal full auto weapons..that won't really effect the criminal black market much if any IMO. It's cheaper to buy a completely illegal weapon in most cases and an illegal gun won't be entered into FBI files. |
ok, that does make sense, I'm not very familiar with how easy/hard it is to get these type of weapons on the black market (i was under the impression that things like handguns, regular rifles, etc were easy to attain, but assault weapons were harder.. i did admit i didnt know much about this when i came into this topic didnt i? )
| scrabler wrote: | | Nothing wrong with being afraid of war hehe I'm sure everyone but the crazy muslim fanactics are to some extent. When I think of a situation where I am fighting for our freedom in my own neighborhood it isn't surreal for me, though it is frightening. My mindset is pretty different in that aspect than yours though as I am centering my life around preparing myself to go off to war in the next 2 years when I enlist. |
Okay, so you are definately coming from a completely different perspective than me. I can see owning an assault weapon as a lot more logical if you're planning to join the army. I can understand that- but what about your average joe who is a cashier at the grocery store? Does he necessarily have use for a highly-damaging weapon? And i still cannot picture anyone going to open-war with us and attacking neighborhoods across the country like it sounds like you are picturing. I say that because they would have no chance- it would be a stupid move.. Anyone who openly comes out against us in a clear location would be crushed. Look at the Iraqi army when we were at war. They were openly at war with us for what? 3 days? These people resort to terrorism because they have no other way to get us- they cant accomplish anything against us any other way than hiding and attacking soft targets or suicide bombing. |
There is a price to pay for the freedom we do have....
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Guest
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 02:38 Post subject:
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Think big picture, then you will understand what they want to do.
Think end game:)
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Kurel
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1877
Location: Cali
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 03:33 Post subject:
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Just because there isn't an immediate threat to us this very momment, doesn't mean there won't be one 20, 30 even 100 years from now.
As much as you'd like it to be, the United States isn't going to remain the sole super power in the world. The top dog always gets toppled, take Rome for example.
The whole issue on gun control and bannings is a Constitutional one in that we're trying to protect the very freedoms that were guaranteed to us by our forefathers. The United States Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and it should be VERY difficult to get any part of it changed and the input of every citizen in America is needed.
Why should we forsake a freedom that was promised to us, just because it doesn't serve a practical purpose at this very momment (to some), but it could in the future?
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 08:28 Post subject:
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| hunnybunny wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: | | Well, as for the availability of legal full auto weapons..that won't really effect the criminal black market much if any IMO. It's cheaper to buy a completely illegal weapon in most cases and an illegal gun won't be entered into FBI files. |
ok, that does make sense, I'm not very familiar with how easy/hard it is to get these type of weapons on the black market (i was under the impression that things like handguns, regular rifles, etc were easy to attain, but assault weapons were harder.. i did admit i didnt know much about this when i came into this topic didnt i? )
| scrabler wrote: | | Nothing wrong with being afraid of war hehe I'm sure everyone but the crazy muslim fanactics are to some extent. When I think of a situation where I am fighting for our freedom in my own neighborhood it isn't surreal for me, though it is frightening. My mindset is pretty different in that aspect than yours though as I am centering my life around preparing myself to go off to war in the next 2 years when I enlist. |
Okay, so you are definately coming from a completely different perspective than me. I can see owning an assault weapon as a lot more logical if you're planning to join the army. I can understand that- but what about your average joe who is a cashier at the grocery store? Does he necessarily have use for a highly-damaging weapon? And i still cannot picture anyone going to open-war with us and attacking neighborhoods across the country like it sounds like you are picturing. I say that because they would have no chance- it would be a stupid move.. Anyone who openly comes out against us in a clear location would be crushed. Look at the Iraqi army when we were at war. They were openly at war with us for what? 3 days? These people resort to terrorism because they have no other way to get us- they cant accomplish anything against us any other way than hiding and attacking soft targets or suicide bombing. |
Well, if you are a Christian or Muslim you most likely believe in a large scale war some day heh. Take Islam for example, ALL Muslims believe that one day the Mahdi will appear who is someone that is the direct will of Alah. Jesus is suppose to come back and is defeated by Mahdi's army and becomes his 2nd in command. The whole point of that is to defeat Christianity, and Muslims look at the US as Christianity now it seems. There's about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today..imagine the army they could form from just their healthy young men. I read a writeup on this recently and the suspected size of their army would be 200 million. Christianity is the other side of the coin to that belief in many ways. We see the war as being waged by the Anti-Christ(Mahdi) and a false prophet("Jesus"). Even Nostradamus has predictions on the Muslim/Christian war; using the Eagle(USA maybe)and the Sun(China maybe)as being unlikely allies to win the war.
Point is we aren't going to last forever unless things change in the way the world works. I'm not saying it will happen anytime soon, maybe we will be the longest lasting nation in history but chances are we will fall some day. When the day comes I want our people to at least be able to defend themselves and maybe help fight back the enemy.
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 10:23 Post subject:
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| Scrabler wrote: | | hunnybunny wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: | | Well, as for the availability of legal full auto weapons..that won't really effect the criminal black market much if any IMO. It's cheaper to buy a completely illegal weapon in most cases and an illegal gun won't be entered into FBI files. |
ok, that does make sense, I'm not very familiar with how easy/hard it is to get these type of weapons on the black market (i was under the impression that things like handguns, regular rifles, etc were easy to attain, but assault weapons were harder.. i did admit i didnt know much about this when i came into this topic didnt i? )
| scrabler wrote: | | Nothing wrong with being afraid of war hehe I'm sure everyone but the crazy muslim fanactics are to some extent. When I think of a situation where I am fighting for our freedom in my own neighborhood it isn't surreal for me, though it is frightening. My mindset is pretty different in that aspect than yours though as I am centering my life around preparing myself to go off to war in the next 2 years when I enlist. |
Okay, so you are definately coming from a completely different perspective than me. I can see owning an assault weapon as a lot more logical if you're planning to join the army. I can understand that- but what about your average joe who is a cashier at the grocery store? Does he necessarily have use for a highly-damaging weapon? And i still cannot picture anyone going to open-war with us and attacking neighborhoods across the country like it sounds like you are picturing. I say that because they would have no chance- it would be a stupid move.. Anyone who openly comes out against us in a clear location would be crushed. Look at the Iraqi army when we were at war. They were openly at war with us for what? 3 days? These people resort to terrorism because they have no other way to get us- they cant accomplish anything against us any other way than hiding and attacking soft targets or suicide bombing. |
Well, if you are a Christian or Muslim you most likely believe in a large scale war some day heh. Take Islam for example, ALL Muslims believe that one day the Mahdi will appear who is someone that is the direct will of Alah. Jesus is suppose to come back and is defeated by Mahdi's army and becomes his 2nd in command. The whole point of that is to defeat Christianity, and Muslims look at the US as Christianity now it seems. There's about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today..imagine the army they could form from just their healthy young men. I read a writeup on this recently and the suspected size of their army would be 200 million. Christianity is the other side of the coin to that belief in many ways. We see the war as being waged by the Anti-Christ(Mahdi) and a false prophet("Jesus"). Even Nostradamus has predictions on the Muslim/Christian war; using the Eagle(USA maybe)and the Sun(China maybe)as being unlikely allies to win the war.
Point is we aren't going to last forever unless things change in the way the world works. I'm not saying it will happen anytime soon, maybe we will be the longest lasting nation in history but chances are we will fall some day. When the day comes I want our people to at least be able to defend themselves and maybe help fight back the enemy. |
I'm not sure if you were serious, but if you were - you need to stop smoking whatever it is you are smoking.
Nostradamus, the idea of a holy war, and other "omg teh world is coming to an end" scenarios are bad arguments to base national policy on.
And yes, the constitution gives you the right to bear arms, to fight against an oppressing government. The idea is rather simple: an army is much less likely to follow orders fighting against their own citizens, than foreign countries. As long as the country is armed, the government would have a very hard time oppressing the people.
That still doesn't mean you'll have fire fights on the streets against the army or an invading enemy - let's stay real here please.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 10:51 Post subject:
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| Soriak wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: | | hunnybunny wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: | | Well, as for the availability of legal full auto weapons..that won't really effect the criminal black market much if any IMO. It's cheaper to buy a completely illegal weapon in most cases and an illegal gun won't be entered into FBI files. |
ok, that does make sense, I'm not very familiar with how easy/hard it is to get these type of weapons on the black market (i was under the impression that things like handguns, regular rifles, etc were easy to attain, but assault weapons were harder.. i did admit i didnt know much about this when i came into this topic didnt i? )
| scrabler wrote: | | Nothing wrong with being afraid of war hehe I'm sure everyone but the crazy muslim fanactics are to some extent. When I think of a situation where I am fighting for our freedom in my own neighborhood it isn't surreal for me, though it is frightening. My mindset is pretty different in that aspect than yours though as I am centering my life around preparing myself to go off to war in the next 2 years when I enlist. |
Okay, so you are definately coming from a completely different perspective than me. I can see owning an assault weapon as a lot more logical if you're planning to join the army. I can understand that- but what about your average joe who is a cashier at the grocery store? Does he necessarily have use for a highly-damaging weapon? And i still cannot picture anyone going to open-war with us and attacking neighborhoods across the country like it sounds like you are picturing. I say that because they would have no chance- it would be a stupid move.. Anyone who openly comes out against us in a clear location would be crushed. Look at the Iraqi army when we were at war. They were openly at war with us for what? 3 days? These people resort to terrorism because they have no other way to get us- they cant accomplish anything against us any other way than hiding and attacking soft targets or suicide bombing. |
Well, if you are a Christian or Muslim you most likely believe in a large scale war some day heh. Take Islam for example, ALL Muslims believe that one day the Mahdi will appear who is someone that is the direct will of Alah. Jesus is suppose to come back and is defeated by Mahdi's army and becomes his 2nd in command. The whole point of that is to defeat Christianity, and Muslims look at the US as Christianity now it seems. There's about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today..imagine the army they could form from just their healthy young men. I read a writeup on this recently and the suspected size of their army would be 200 million. Christianity is the other side of the coin to that belief in many ways. We see the war as being waged by the Anti-Christ(Mahdi) and a false prophet("Jesus"). Even Nostradamus has predictions on the Muslim/Christian war; using the Eagle(USA maybe)and the Sun(China maybe)as being unlikely allies to win the war.
Point is we aren't going to last forever unless things change in the way the world works. I'm not saying it will happen anytime soon, maybe we will be the longest lasting nation in history but chances are we will fall some day. When the day comes I want our people to at least be able to defend themselves and maybe help fight back the enemy. |
I'm not sure if you were serious, but if you were - you need to stop smoking whatever it is you are smoking.
Nostradamus, the idea of a holy war, and other "omg teh world is coming to an end" scenarios are bad arguments to base national policy on.
And yes, the constitution gives you the right to bear arms, to fight against an oppressing government. The idea is rather simple: an army is much less likely to follow orders fighting against their own citizens, than foreign countries. As long as the country is armed, the government would have a very hard time oppressing the people.
That still doesn't mean you'll have fire fights on the streets against the army or an invading enemy - let's stay real here please. |
So you think the US could never be beaten? Lol
Anyway we can both agree that currently our main enemy is arab muslim extremists. Every Muslim believes that one day the Mahdi will appear and lead them in a war..it justifies their religion. Sorry but yes I do believe there will one day be a massive religious war. This country is founded on Christianity and it is seen that way by the Muslims. Some day the Mahdi will show up and the people will believe he is the true one..hell Osama said he was the Mahdi but no one believed he was the one.
You don't have to stretch at all the believe it; their religion is based off the idea and eventually someone will say he is the Mahdi and be believed. An army of 200+ million fanatics isn't something that should be taken lightly even considering the huge tech gap. Especially since we let so many Muslims inside the US and in Europe..it's a bad situation when their man shows up and they unite.
And I sure as hell will be fighting in the 2nd Crusade if it happens in my lifetime.
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goatface
Sir Postalot
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 1354
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 11:48 Post subject:
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civilized society is only a couple of missed meals away from anarchy
i really don't worry about canandians or mexicans or anyone else invading but more like the riots after a major blackout or some crap like that.
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 11:57 Post subject:
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| Scrabler wrote: |
So you think the US could never be beaten? Lol
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It'd take a mighty impressive navy to get to NA without losing the majority of the attack force. If you're trying to imply every nation in the world would unite against the US, then yes - of course it's possible. But that scenario is more than unlikely, now and in the future - and armed citizens wouldn't make a difference either.
Besides, why would other nations conspire to invade the US? Their economies are largely dependant on the US (and the other way around), so that doesn't make sense. Different for terrorists - obviously they don't trade at the NYSE. But they don't have the ability to invade anything, just do damage.
| Quote: |
Anyway we can both agree that currently our main enemy is arab muslim extremists. Every Muslim believes that one day the Mahdi will appear and lead them in a war..it justifies their religion. Sorry but yes I do believe there will one day be a massive religious war. This country is founded on Christianity and it is seen that way by the Muslims. Some day the Mahdi will show up and the people will believe he is the true one..hell Osama said he was the Mahdi but no one believed he was the one.
You don't have to stretch at all the believe it; their religion is based off the idea and eventually someone will say he is the Mahdi and be believed. An army of 200+ million fanatics isn't something that should be taken lightly even considering the huge tech gap. Especially since we let so many Muslims inside the US and in Europe..it's a bad situation when their man shows up and they unite.
And I sure as hell will be fighting in the 2nd Crusade if it happens in my lifetime. |
You have to be careful with numbers - I seriously doubt there are 200 million arabs waiting for the day to attack the western civilisation. For the most part they're peaceful people. It'd be like saying christians are just waiting for someone to claim he's jesus so they can blow up muslims - not going to happen.
Or would you believe some random guy if he told you he was jesus and commands you to go to war? Even if that random guy was well known (politican, financial genius or anything else really) he couldn't get that kind of support.
I wouldn't go as far to claim that muslims are more likely to follow some random leader - there are enough examples (some prominet.. hi tom cruise) of non-arabs who do that too - although I wouldn't dispute that, due to their situation, they are more inclined to surrender their lives to their cause.
Now even if that 200m number were true - how many of them actually have any military training? I'm sure they could all learn how to operade an AK-47, but they can't just take over a couple battleships and head towards the US.
The times of crusades is over. Just imagine what a logistical impossibility it'd be to move 200m people in a coordinated attack...
I'd be much more worried about a terorist detonating a dirt bomb or flying a plane in a nuclear power plant than an invasion, and there's nothing you personally can do to prevent either of those.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 12:13 Post subject:
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| Soriak wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: |
So you think the US could never be beaten? Lol
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It'd take a mighty impressive navy to get to NA without losing the majority of the attack force. If you're trying to imply every nation in the world would unite against the US, then yes - of course it's possible. But that scenario is more than unlikely, now and in the future - and armed citizens wouldn't make a difference either.
Besides, why would other nations conspire to invade the US? Their economies are largely dependant on the US (and the other way around), so that doesn't make sense. Different for terrorists - obviously they don't trade at the NYSE. But they don't have the ability to invade anything, just do damage.
| Quote: |
Anyway we can both agree that currently our main enemy is arab muslim extremists. Every Muslim believes that one day the Mahdi will appear and lead them in a war..it justifies their religion. Sorry but yes I do believe there will one day be a massive religious war. This country is founded on Christianity and it is seen that way by the Muslims. Some day the Mahdi will show up and the people will believe he is the true one..hell Osama said he was the Mahdi but no one believed he was the one.
You don't have to stretch at all the believe it; their religion is based off the idea and eventually someone will say he is the Mahdi and be believed. An army of 200+ million fanatics isn't something that should be taken lightly even considering the huge tech gap. Especially since we let so many Muslims inside the US and in Europe..it's a bad situation when their man shows up and they unite.
And I sure as hell will be fighting in the 2nd Crusade if it happens in my lifetime. |
You have to be careful with numbers - I seriously doubt there are 200 million arabs waiting for the day to attack the western civilisation. For the most part they're peaceful people. It'd be like saying christians are just waiting for someone to claim he's jesus so they can blow up muslims - not going to happen.
Or would you believe some random guy if he told you he was jesus and commands you to go to war? Even if that random guy was well known (politican, financial genius or anything else really) he couldn't get that kind of support.
I wouldn't go as far to claim that muslims are more likely to follow some random leader - there are enough examples (some prominet.. hi tom cruise) of non-arabs who do that too - although I wouldn't dispute that, due to their situation, they are more inclined to surrender their lives to their cause.
Now even if that 200m number were true - how many of them actually have any military training? I'm sure they could all learn how to operade an AK-47, but they can't just take over a couple battleships and head towards the US.
The times of crusades is over. Just imagine what a logistical impossibility it'd be to move 200m people in a coordinated attack...
I'd be much more worried about a terorist detonating a dirt bomb or flying a plane in a nuclear power plant than an invasion, and there's nothing you personally can do to prevent either of those. |
I don't doubt the 200m number at all - that's just their young men(18 or so)that would be their better fighting force. All Muslims believe the Mahdi will come back..1.5 billion Muslims is a lot of damn people.
As for people actually following him..are you Christian? Imagine if God himself appeared to the people of earth and said he was going to lead the Christian army in the holy war. The Muslims will know who their Mahdi is by what he does; their texts say he will defeat a couple of Muslim groups that greatly out number his forces which is the sign for them to follow. It's not that they are waiting for their chance to slaughter people(well the extremists are)it's just that they will of course do whatever Allah wants them to because he is the supreme being.
I'm not saying I believe that Allah and Muslims are the "right" religion and that Allah is the real creator but some day one of the guys saying he is Mahdi will pull it off and they will follow him.
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 12:29 Post subject:
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| Quote: | I don't doubt the 200m number at all - that's just their young men(18 or so)that would be their better fighting force. All Muslims believe the Mahdi will come back..1.5 billion Muslims is a lot of damn people.
As for people actually following him..are you Christian? Imagine if God himself appeared to the people of earth and said he was going to lead the Christian army in the holy war. The Muslims will know who their Mahdi is by what he does; their texts say he will defeat a couple of Muslim groups that greatly out number his forces which is the sign for them to follow. It's not that they are waiting for their chance to slaughter people(well the extremists are)it's just that they will of course do whatever Allah wants them to because he is the supreme being.
I'm not saying I believe that Allah and Muslims are the "right" religion and that Allah is the real creator but some day one of the guys saying he is Mahdi will pull it off and they will follow him. |
Quick Quote from Encarta (such a useful program)
| Quote: |
Mahdi (Arabic mahdiy, “he who is guided aright”), the expected Muslim messiah, whose coming was prophesied in the 10th century. Some Muslims hold that the Mahdi has yet to appear; others believe that he has already been on earth but will return. Throughout Muslim history pretenders and fanatics have claimed to be the Mahdi. Of these the most famous was Ubayd Allah al-Mahdi, first caliph of the Fatimid dynasty, after whom the city of Mahdia was named. Another claimant to the title, Muhammad Ahmad, founded a short-lived empire in the eastern Sudan and in 1884-85 captured Khartoum, then defended by the British general Charles George Gordon. |
It's not like someone claiming to be the Mahdi would suddenly lead all those 1.5b people into a war. As this short example shows, it wouldn't be the first time someone claimed to be the Mahdi, and likely not the last time. Luckily it takes a little more than that to get anything done.
Personally, I'm atheist - but most of the people I know are christian, and none of them would take up a weapon if someone claimed to be Jesus and ordered them to go to war. In fact, that person would end up in a psychiatric ward rather fast.
I don't think muslims are different in that aspect - yes, they go to their mosque like (most) christians go to church, but that doesn't mean they'd take up arms for anyone claiming to be their leader.
It's much more likely that most of them want to lead their lives in peace and condemn the actions terrorists do in the name of their religion. Kinda like most christians aren't too happy about the crusades.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 13:16 Post subject:
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| Soriak wrote: | | Quote: | I don't doubt the 200m number at all - that's just their young men(18 or so)that would be their better fighting force. All Muslims believe the Mahdi will come back..1.5 billion Muslims is a lot of damn people.
As for people actually following him..are you Christian? Imagine if God himself appeared to the people of earth and said he was going to lead the Christian army in the holy war. The Muslims will know who their Mahdi is by what he does; their texts say he will defeat a couple of Muslim groups that greatly out number his forces which is the sign for them to follow. It's not that they are waiting for their chance to slaughter people(well the extremists are)it's just that they will of course do whatever Allah wants them to because he is the supreme being.
I'm not saying I believe that Allah and Muslims are the "right" religion and that Allah is the real creator but some day one of the guys saying he is Mahdi will pull it off and they will follow him. |
Quick Quote from Encarta (such a useful program)
| Quote: |
Mahdi (Arabic mahdiy, “he who is guided aright”), the expected Muslim messiah, whose coming was prophesied in the 10th century. Some Muslims hold that the Mahdi has yet to appear; others believe that he has already been on earth but will return. Throughout Muslim history pretenders and fanatics have claimed to be the Mahdi. Of these the most famous was Ubayd Allah al-Mahdi, first caliph of the Fatimid dynasty, after whom the city of Mahdia was named. Another claimant to the title, Muhammad Ahmad, founded a short-lived empire in the eastern Sudan and in 1884-85 captured Khartoum, then defended by the British general Charles George Gordon. |
It's not like someone claiming to be the Mahdi would suddenly lead all those 1.5b people into a war. As this short example shows, it wouldn't be the first time someone claimed to be the Mahdi, and likely not the last time. Luckily it takes a little more than that to get anything done.
Personally, I'm atheist - but most of the people I know are christian, and none of them would take up a weapon if someone claimed to be Jesus and ordered them to go to war. In fact, that person would end up in a psychiatric ward rather fast.
I don't think muslims are different in that aspect - yes, they go to their mosque like (most) christians go to church, but that doesn't mean they'd take up arms for anyone claiming to be their leader.
It's much more likely that most of them want to lead their lives in peace and condemn the actions terrorists do in the name of their religion. Kinda like most christians aren't too happy about the crusades. |
Yes I know there have been false Mahdis..like I said even Osama claimed to be him.
As for your Christian friends ask them if they would follow God's own will(not Jesus)and do what God himself asked of them. Now, I don't go to church, I don't read the Bible all the time, and I don't strictly belong to any religious group(though Southern Baptist would be it if I did)but if God himself asked me to put a bullet in my own head I would do it without a second thought. Having your God(s)give you a direct order would be a big motivator. It's not that all the Muslims in the world are so extreme it's just that the Mahdi would be the direct will of their god.
As for Christians not being happy about the Crusades..I am. The Crusades were not some evil rampage it was the last European defense to save itself from the Muslim empire that had taken the middle east and was close to taking Europe. So without the Crusades things would be very different in the world.
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 13:31 Post subject:
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| Scrabler wrote: | As for your Christian friends ask them if they would follow God's own will(not Jesus)and do what God himself asked of them. Now, I don't go to church, I don't read the Bible all the time, and I don't strictly belong to any religious group(though Southern Baptist would be it if I did)but if God himself asked me to put a bullet in my own head I would do it without a second thought. Having your God(s)give you a direct order would be a big motivator. It's not that all the Muslims in the world are so extreme it's just that the Mahdi would be the direct will of their god.
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The important question here would be, how would you know it was god talking to you?
From what I understand, god wouldn't show up as a person, but speak to you in prayers. Now either *everyone* would hear this 'call' at the same time (which I really don't think is realistic), or the one person who'd respond to it and try to tell everyone would end up in the looney bin.
The reason I took Jesus as an example, is because I think he's god's messanger on earth - so it'd be more like him 'delivering' a message. again, I strongly doubt anyone would believe him, similiar to how only a few believed him the first time.
If someone told you a 'voice' which he believes to be god, told him to kill himself (or others), you probably would get him hospitalized as well.
Not to make this a religious thread, but when you said someone would claim to be their leader and start such a massive holy war, I thought about someone falsly claiming to be that.
Religion has it's place in society, but I'd prefere it be kept out of foreign and domestic policy as much as possible. (which I know won't happen anytime soon)
| Quote: |
As for Christians not being happy about the Crusades..I am. The Crusades were not some evil rampage it was the last European defense to save itself from the Muslim empire that had taken the middle east and was close to taking Europe. So without the Crusades things would be very different in the world. |
I'm not disputing they had a positive effect on western civilisation, but there were some parts that shouldn't have happened. Klling millions of non-combatans was nothing short of genocide. Lots of culture (buildings, libraries etc) were destroyed as well.
If your goal is to 'kill every muslim you find' - then that's not justifieable under any circumstances. If you only go against combatants it's a different story.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 13:41 Post subject:
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| Soriak wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: | As for your Christian friends ask them if they would follow God's own will(not Jesus)and do what God himself asked of them. Now, I don't go to church, I don't read the Bible all the time, and I don't strictly belong to any religious group(though Southern Baptist would be it if I did)but if God himself asked me to put a bullet in my own head I would do it without a second thought. Having your God(s)give you a direct order would be a big motivator. It's not that all the Muslims in the world are so extreme it's just that the Mahdi would be the direct will of their god.
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The important question here would be, how would you know it was god talking to you?
From what I understand, god wouldn't show up as a person, but speak to you in prayers. Now either *everyone* would hear this 'call' at the same time (which I really don't think is realistic), or the one person who'd respond to it and try to tell everyone would end up in the looney bin.
The reason I took Jesus as an example, is because I think he's god's messanger on earth - so it'd be more like him 'delivering' a message. again, I strongly doubt anyone would believe him, similiar to how only a few believed him the first time.
If someone told you a 'voice' which he believes to be god, told him to kill himself (or others), you probably would get him hospitalized as well.
Not to make this a religious thread, but when you said someone would claim to be their leader and start such a massive holy war, I thought about someone falsly claiming to be that.
Religion has it's place in society, but I'd prefere it be kept out of foreign and domestic policy as much as possible. (which I know won't happen anytime soon)
| Quote: |
As for Christians not being happy about the Crusades..I am. The Crusades were not some evil rampage it was the last European defense to save itself from the Muslim empire that had taken the middle east and was close to taking Europe. So without the Crusades things would be very different in the world. |
I'm not disputing they had a positive effect on western civilisation, but there were some parts that shouldn't have happened. Klling millions of non-combatans was nothing short of genocide. Lots of culture (buildings, libraries etc) were destroyed as well.
If your goal is to 'kill every muslim you find' - then that's not justifieable under any circumstances. If you only go against combatants it's a different story. |
The Mahdi is suppose to be Allah putting his direct will into a body. So it's not that there is a "voice" but an actual man who pretty much IS Allah. Word travels fast in the modern world.
As for religion having a hand in our policies..it should in this case. We are fighting against a religion currently; the extremists are the only ones who use violence to further the cause but Islam is against anything but Islam. Some day the war will happen and when it does we can be prepared or we can be PC and be caught with our pants down.
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Soriak
Toomuchtimeonhands
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 952
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 13:58 Post subject:
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| Quote: |
The Mahdi is suppose to be Allah putting his direct will into a body. So it's not that there is a "voice" but an actual man who pretty much IS Allah. Word travels fast in the modern world.
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So that'd make him the islamic version of Jesus, no? At least in the way christians see him.
So again, that's open for exploitation - and I give muslims enough credit to not be stupid enough and follow the first person who claims to be the Mahdi.
| Quote: |
As for religion having a hand in our policies..it should in this case. We are fighting against a religion currently; the extremists are the only ones who use violence to further the cause but Islam is against anything but Islam. Some day the war will happen and when it does we can be prepared or we can be PC and be caught with our pants down.
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The war on terror has nothing to do with any religion. I'm sure it sounds like a broken record as you hear it at every major political speech - but Islam in general really is a peaceful religion. (with the possible exception of the role of women, but look at how long it took for western civilisation to give women the right to vote...)
Like any other it's open for exploitation by those who have the power to do so.
Commiting suicide (under any circumstances) for example is not allowed in the Koran, and won't get you to heaven. That doesn't stop terrorists from exploiting the desperation of some people to get them to do their bidding.
What I find funny is how this 'holy war' thing got started by the media, because of a faulty translation. They translated "jihad" to "holy war", when in fact it means "to struggle".
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Aviger
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1509
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 14:19 Post subject:
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| Kurel wrote: | Also, if a foreign power were somehow able to invade, you'd have armed citizens on the streets to fight them.
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If ANY foreign power manages to get past the US army (according to all you americans the GoD'S of human military power and invincible to mere other mortals) how in the name of all that is holy is the (mostly) stupid and ignorant population of america with peeshooters going to stop them or even slow them down 
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Paco
RealPoor Jedi
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 12939
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 14:20 Post subject:
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wow, this thread has alot of words
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atarom
Dalai Lama of RealPoor
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 16395
Location: 375th st. Y
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Posted: 09/11/04 - 14:23 Post subject:
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