|
|
| Author |
Message |
Tolanin
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3551
|
 Posted: 05/19/04 - 21:57 Post subject: Americans, do we just suck at imperialism?
|
|
|
Now I am a big fan of a strong america with a large army and being able to go into other nations but maybe we shouldnt.
I mean honestly I back bush but its startin to look kinda bleak in iraq. More people keep dieing and honestly I personally dont care. But its kinda lookin like we will have to pull out no matter what now, Bush wants out and if he leaves Iraq will be a huge failure.. if it isnt already =/
So I have come to the conclussion that americans just suck at imperialism. I mean really if the British had an insurgance when they were empire building and the natives killed the garrison and raped the women, did they talk about it and try to reason with them and humanely deal with it and then leave in defeat cause they couldnt stomach losing more men over something that 'wasnt worthwhile'? No they got a huge army together and went and kicked ass.. so maybe we just dont have the stomach for this shit, maybe we shouldnt go into other countrys cause we always f**k up. Our leaders are retarded and dont know how to manage the military, our public is retarded and dont know how to suport one.. so I am really considering the fact that all these liberals were right about not invading, not cause invading people is wrong but just cause we seem to suck at it.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
 |
sinrakin
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 7044
|
|
Posted: 05/19/04 - 22:22 Post subject:
|
|
|
The imperial model doesn't really work anymore. For one thing, it's not consistant with human rights, which we claim to value.
For another, you can't get away with as much as you used to. There are digital cameras and TV cameras and satellite communications and reporters and international observers so you can't do the stuff countries used to do because they knew nobody would ever know, or at least ever be able to prove.
And resistances are much more empowered now. You used to be able to just jail anyone with a typewriter. But there are cellphones, cameras, weblogs, satellite dishes, fast transportation, easy movement of funds, etc. Everyone knows what's happening. They can coordinate with each other, and get international support from anyone sympathetic to their cause. You can't stop them from organizing, short of killing everyone.
Nobody's ever going to be able to be an imperial power through force again. It's not like there are any other contenders; it just isn't possible anymore, unless the whole world drops back into the dark ages again somehow.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Tolanin
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 3551
|
|
Posted: 05/19/04 - 22:26 Post subject:
|
|
|
| sinrakin wrote: | The imperial model doesn't really work anymore. For one thing, it's not consistant with human rights, which we claim to value.
For another, you can't get away with as much as you used to. There are digital cameras and TV cameras and satellite communications and reporters and international observers so you can't do the stuff countries used to do because they knew nobody would ever know, or at least ever be able to prove.
And resistances are much more empowered now. You used to be able to just jail anyone with a typewriter. But there are cellphones, cameras, weblogs, satellite dishes, fast transportation, easy movement of funds, etc. Everyone knows what's happening. They can coordinate with each other, and get international support from anyone sympathetic to their cause. You can't stop them from organizing, short of killing everyone.
Nobody's ever going to be able to be an imperial power through force again. It's not like there are any other contenders; it just isn't possible anymore, unless the whole world drops back into the dark ages again somehow. |
just a little fyi, technology makes it easier to control people. Saying its not possible to be an imperial power through force is incredibly ignorant, on the contrary it is easier now that ever.
| Quote: | | You can't stop them from organizing, short of killing everyone. |
exactly... but people can be killed, and its rather easy or so i hear.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
|
|
Posted: 05/19/04 - 22:38 Post subject:
|
|
|
Watch a few movies:
Anything about Zulus or Roarke's Drift
Ghandi
And see just how 'easy' the old empires had it 
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Xion
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2117
Location: Los Angeles, CA
|
|
Posted: 05/19/04 - 23:00 Post subject:
|
|
|
the country should split into 3 entities: kurds, sunni's, shiites.
the kurds aren't even iraqi.
the shiites were oppressed by the sunni's under saddam, and sooner or later a civil war is going ot break out between the two groups. they just need to divide that shit, because these people are incapable of having secular government.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Nuldaan
Sir Postalot
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 1179
|
|
Posted: 05/19/04 - 23:37 Post subject: Re: Americans, do we just suck at imperialism?
|
|
|
| Tolanin wrote: | Now I am a big fan of a strong america with a large army and being able to go into other nations but maybe we shouldnt.
I mean honestly I back bush but its startin to look kinda bleak in iraq. More people keep dieing and honestly I personally dont care. But its kinda lookin like we will have to pull out no matter what now, Bush wants out and if he leaves Iraq will be a huge failure.. if it isnt already =/
So I have come to the conclussion that americans just suck at imperialism. I mean really if the British had an insurgance when they were empire building and the natives killed the garrison and raped the women, did they talk about it and try to reason with them and humanely deal with it and then leave in defeat cause they couldnt stomach losing more men over something that 'wasnt worthwhile'? No they got a huge army together and went and kicked ass.. so maybe we just dont have the stomach for this shit, maybe we shouldnt go into other countrys cause we always f**k up. Our leaders are retarded and dont know how to manage the military, our public is retarded and dont know how to suport one.. so I am really considering the fact that all these liberals were right about not invading, not cause invading people is wrong but just cause we seem to suck at it. |
I think we're actually doing quite well in Iraq, all things considered. I know what the news reports but the news has a fascinating aversion to reporting good news.
Brutul posted a link not too long ago to a bunch of Iraqi blogs that were universally positive in their views of America and it's troops. Surprisingly, a number of them went so far as to point out how little they wanted to do with all the enraged clerics from other Middle Eastern countries. Another trend of those same blogs was a sense that Iraq's problems stem from the fundamentalists and militias that are fighting to put the yoke back around their necks.
Strangely enough, none of these views are ever reported on our network news. Instead we get hours and hours of clerics in Saudi Arabia yelling about how enraged the Iraqi people are. A novel approach that I have yet to see is someone actually reporting what the Iraqis think. Our problem is our news outlets and their complete inability to report a story properly.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Janoth
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 3135
|
|
Posted: 05/19/04 - 23:38 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
I think we should remodel our government after the Imperials in Star wars. Then we could just burn every1 that p****d us off. May the force b with you.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 6730
|
|
Posted: 05/20/04 - 03:35 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
We're working on creating an independent government for them. Explain how that's imperialism.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Celestra
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 6929
|
|
Posted: 05/20/04 - 03:58 Post subject: Re: Americans, do we just suck at imperialism?
|
|
|
| Tolanin wrote: | Now I am a big fan of a strong america with a large army and being able to go into other nations but maybe we shouldnt.
I mean honestly I back bush but its startin to look kinda bleak in iraq. More people keep dieing and honestly I personally dont care. But its kinda lookin like we will have to pull out no matter what now, Bush wants out and if he leaves Iraq will be a huge failure.. if it isnt already =/
So I have come to the conclussion that americans just suck at imperialism. I mean really if the British had an insurgance when they were empire building and the natives killed the garrison and raped the women, did they talk about it and try to reason with them and humanely deal with it and then leave in defeat cause they couldnt stomach losing more men over something that 'wasnt worthwhile'? No they got a huge army together and went and kicked ass.. so maybe we just dont have the stomach for this shit, maybe we shouldnt go into other countrys cause we always f**k up. Our leaders are retarded and dont know how to manage the military, our public is retarded and dont know how to suport one.. so I am really considering the fact that all these liberals were right about not invading, not cause invading people is wrong but just cause we seem to suck at it. |
Imperialism has failed, everywhere. Not just American imperialism.
Like Sinrakin said, it's an outdated model. The modern world has gradually moved away from it. Western countries have over the last century gradually lost most if not all of their colonies. Some colonies are retained, but those are usually very small ones that need the support of the 'motherland'.
I think it's a bit soon to declare American intervention in Iraq a failure. Yes it's a mess, yes people died. Did you have realistic expectations? I think that's the problem nowadays with a lot of people (Americans and others). They forgot, or never knew, what it takes to wage a war.
Last week we had a Dutch soldier killed and some people were talking about pulling our forces out of Iraq. This is just mindboggling to me. The way I see it: you either stand for something, or you don't. It's a warzone, what do people expect? That noone's gonna get hurt? Yes it's sad that a young life is cut short, but it's a jobrisk if you're in the military. Full stop. No need to get into whiney discussions about the merits of our decision to go there in the first place, which was sound. If a fireman dies doing his job noone is saying "Well Gosh, maybe we should stop putting out fires, coz it sure is dangerous."
I don't think you should see the American effort in Iraq as a failure, yet. Again with the realistic expectations. This was never going to be a 'get in- get out' thing. It wasn't even going to be a 2 year campaign as it was said on the news in the beginning. It's going to take a lot of time to turn that country around. It's going to cost: patience, money, and lives. All you need to ask yourselves is whether you're willing to pay the price.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
atarom
Dalai Lama of RealPoor
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 16395
Location: 375th st. Y
|
|
Posted: 05/20/04 - 05:17 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
i suck at golf.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Maldek
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 2089
|
|
Posted: 05/20/04 - 10:27 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
All the powers that be ever gave a shit about was revenge against Saddam and securing control of the oil. The independent government shit is just for PR, we could really give 2 f***s about what happens to those people so long as the black gold keeps flowing from the wells.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
Posted: 05/20/04 - 10:45 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Maldek wrote: | | All the powers that be ever gave a shit about was revenge against Saddam and securing control of the oil. The independent government shit is just for PR, we could really give 2 f***s about what happens to those people so long as the black gold keeps flowing from the wells. |
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
