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Vekril
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 15 Oct 2002 Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 11:01 Post subject: Amazing article on redneck culture and race
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Long article to follow, and it may get moved to political forum soon, but here goes. Thomas Sowell, a famous black historian (conservative) who has been studying race issues for over 30 years, published a new book that blames the disparities in achievement on CULTURE, not racism or slavery, and says that the same redneck culture is what holds back Southern whites. Great read from today's Wall Street Journal.
| Quote: | Crippled by Their Culture
Race doesn't hold back America's "black rednecks." Nor does racism.
BY THOMAS SOWELL
Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT
For most of the history of this country, differences between the black and the white population--whether in income, IQ, crime rates, or whatever--have been attributed to either race or racism. For much of the first half of the 20th century, these differences were attributed to race--that is, to an assumption that blacks just did not have it in their genes to do as well as white people. The tide began to turn in the second half of the 20th century, when the assumption developed that black-white differences were due to racism on the part of whites.
Three decades of my own research lead me to believe that neither of those explanations will stand up under scrutiny of the facts. As one small example, a study published last year indicated that most of the black alumni of Harvard were from either the West Indies or Africa, or were the children of West Indian or African immigrants. These people are the same race as American blacks, who greatly outnumber either or both.
If this disparity is not due to race, it is equally hard to explain by racism. To a racist, one black is pretty much the same as another. But, even if a racist somehow let his racism stop at the water's edge, how could he tell which student was the son or daughter of someone born in the West Indies or in Africa, especially since their American-born offspring probably do not even have a foreign accent?
What then could explain such large disparities in demographic "representation" among these three groups of blacks? Perhaps they have different patterns of behavior and different cultures and values behind their behavior.
There have always been large disparities, even within the native black population of the U.S. Those blacks whose ancestors were "free persons of color" in 1850 have fared far better in income, occupation, and family stability than those blacks whose ancestors were freed in the next decade by Abraham Lincoln.
What is not nearly as widely known is that there were also very large disparities within the white population of the pre-Civil War South and the white population of the Northern states. Although Southern whites were only about one-third of the white population of the U.S., an absolute majority of all the illiterate whites in the country were in the South.
The North had four times as many schools as the South, attended by more than four times as many students. Children in Massachusetts spent more than twice as many years in school as children in Virginia. Such disparities obviously produce other disparities. Northern newspapers had more than four times the circulation of Southern newspapers. Only 8% of the patents issued in 1851 went to Southerners. Even though agriculture was the principal economic activity of the antebellum South at the time, the vast majority of the patents for agricultural inventions went to Northerners. Even the cotton gin was invented by a Northerner.
Disparities between Southern whites and Northern whites extended across the board from rates of violence to rates of illegitimacy. American writers from both the antebellum South and the North commented on the great differences between the white people in the two regions. So did famed French visitor Alexis de Tocqueville.
None of these disparities can be attributed to either race or racism. Many contemporary observers attributed these differences to the existence of slavery in the South, as many in later times would likewise attribute both the difference between Northern and Southern whites, and between blacks and whites nationwide, to slavery. But slavery doesn't stand up under scrutiny of historical facts any better than race or racism as explanations of North-South differences or black-white differences. The people who settled in the South came from different regions of Britain than the people who settled in the North--and they differed as radically on the other side of the Atlantic as they did here--that is, before they had ever seen a black slave.
Slavery also cannot explain the difference between American blacks and West Indian blacks living in the United States because the ancestors of both were enslaved. When race, racism, and slavery all fail the empirical test, what is left?
Culture is left.
The culture of the people who were called "rednecks" and "crackers" before they ever got on the boats to cross the Atlantic was a culture that produced far lower levels of intellectual and economic achievement, as well as far higher levels of violence and **** promiscuity. That culture had its own way of talking, not only in the pronunciation of particular words but also in a loud, dramatic style of oratory with vivid imagery, repetitive phrases and repetitive cadences.
Although that style originated on the other side of the Atlantic in centuries past, it became for generations the style of both religious oratory and political oratory among Southern whites and among Southern blacks--not only in the South but in the Northern ghettos in which Southern blacks settled. It was a style used by Southern white politicians in the era of Jim Crow and later by black civil rights leaders fighting Jim Crow. Martin Luther King's famous speech at the Lincoln Memorial in 1963 was a classic example of that style.
While a third of the white population of the U.S. lived within the redneck culture, more than 90% of the black population did. Although that culture eroded away over the generations, it did so at different rates in different places and among different people. It eroded away much faster in Britain than in the U.S. and somewhat faster among Southern whites than among Southern blacks, who had fewer opportunities for education or for the rewards that came with escape from that counterproductive culture.
Nevertheless the process took a long time. As late as the First World War, white soldiers from Georgia, Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi scored lower on mental tests than black soldiers from Ohio, Illinois, New York and Pennsylvania. Again, neither race nor racism can explain that--and neither can slavery.
The redneck culture proved to be a major handicap for both whites and blacks who absorbed it. Today, the last remnants of that culture can still be found in the worst of the black ghettos, whether in the North or the South, for the ghettos of the North were settled by blacks from the South. The counterproductive and self-destructive culture of black rednecks in today's ghettos is regarded by many as the only "authentic" black culture--and, for that reason, something not to be tampered with. Their talk, their attitudes, and their behavior are regarded as sacrosanct.
The people who take this view may think of themselves as friends of blacks. But they are the kinds of friends who can do more harm than enemies.
Mr. Sowell, the Rose and Milton Friedman Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, is author, most recently, of "Black Rednecks and White Liberals," published this week by Encounter Books.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006608 |
so basically Scrabler is culturally black!!
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Ikkan
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 06 Sep 2003 Posts: 3086
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 11:14 Post subject:
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I am so f*****g sick of race. You're a person, I'm a person, we're all people. If you're black, what's the big deal? If you're white, what's the big deal? It doesn't make us any different. It's our culture that makes us different.
Culture is not an ethnocentric issue either. If you think it is, say hello to the 500 White Rich thugs in my school.
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Celestra
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 6929
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 11:15 Post subject:
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lol @ your conclusion =)
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 15 Oct 2002 Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 11:18 Post subject:
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Ikkan you are repeating the author's point more or less, albeit in a less eloquent manner.
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Ikkan
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 06 Sep 2003 Posts: 3086
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 11:22 Post subject:
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Yeah I know, the whole racial issue just angers me though. f*****g Affirmative Action makes me so mad
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 08 Feb 2004 Posts: 6730
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 11:40 Post subject:
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Race doesn't matter unless you're a kike, n****r, wetback, chink, dago or charlie.
Or European.
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Ikkan
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 06 Sep 2003 Posts: 3086
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 11:45 Post subject:
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What about Jerry?
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Ikkan
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 06 Sep 2003 Posts: 3086
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 11:45 Post subject:
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nm Jerry is European
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Confused
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 08 Feb 2004 Posts: 6730
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 11:50 Post subject:
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This is funny: http://www.rsdb.org
I think my favorite is "German Oven Mitt".
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 16:45 Post subject:
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Who the hell calls black people in the ghetto "rednecks"? They're n*****s.
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Occulis
RealPoor Jedi

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 13293
Location: Moral Relativity Central
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 16:51 Post subject:
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| Scrabler wrote: | | Who the hell calls black people in the ghetto "rednecks"? They're n*****s. |
I'm sorry redneck is a sacred word to you.
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Qaldyin
Sir Postalot

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1346
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 16:51 Post subject:
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I dunno..but you're a hick =p
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 15 Oct 2002 Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 16:51 Post subject:
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Read the article and you will understand. It is being used to describe the Southern culture that arose in this country and led to the South, both white and black, being way behind the North in education and achievement. Most blacks in this country until very recently were either in the South or the children of parents who emigrated north.
The achievement levels of blacks who are not descendants of slavery (immigrants) or who have moved north and escaped the ghetto culture are much closer to those of whites, and above southern whites in some cases.
It just reinforces what I have always said - I do not dislike black people, but I f*****g hate the hip hop culture that dominates black America.
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Qaldyin
Sir Postalot

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1346
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 16:58 Post subject:
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So you are saying you dislike most blacks? That's like saying "I dislike people who listen to classical music because they have money and act snobby."
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:04 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: | Read the article and you will understand. It is being used to describe the Southern culture that arose in this country and led to the South, both white and black, being way behind the North in education and achievement. Most blacks in this country until very recently were either in the South or the children of parents who emigrated north.
The achievement levels of blacks who are not descendants of slavery (immigrants) or who have moved north and escaped the ghetto culture are much closer to those of whites, and above southern whites in some cases.
It just reinforces what I have always said - I do not dislike black people, but I f*****g hate the hip hop culture that dominates black America. |
I agree it's not the color of the skin that matters it's the person. Many blacks just happen to be ghetto-rap lovin-thug n*****s.
As for rednecks being below the curve with blacks..not anymore. During slavery the wealthy and educated whites were by far the minority. Most whites didn't live much better then blacks at the time; being "free" doesn't mean nearly as much when you're a sharecropper doing the same job as the black slave accross the fence for the same basic food/clothing/shelter. Blacks still have a larger % that fall behind in education and life in general.
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 15 Oct 2002 Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:05 Post subject:
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I have said this before so I will lay it out briefly for you Qald.
Yes
I believe the hip hop culture (which happens to be the dominant black culture in America for the under 30 demographic) is absolutely, 100% devoid of any positive values. It promotes and celebrates nothing but horseshit and a life of failure unless you are in the tiny fraction of a % to be a pro athlete or entertainer. I challenge you to name 1 positive thing about the hip hop culture (not just rap music, the entire urban culture it represents).
Black, white, Asian, Jewish, whatever - if you embrace the hip hop culture AND its values then I look at you with contempt and disgust.
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Fattguyy
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 09 Sep 2003 Posts: 9911
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:25 Post subject:
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WHITE POWER WHITE POWER, j/k
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Nahualli
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 8461
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:31 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: | | I challenge you to name 1 positive thing about the hip hop culture (not just rap music, the entire urban culture it represents). |
It promotes Freedom of Speech
*chuckles*
-Nah-
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 15 Oct 2002 Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:32 Post subject:
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ROFL Nahualli
I guess you have a point there, but if that speech is Ebonics then it is still promoting shit.
touche
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Qaldyin
Sir Postalot

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1346
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:33 Post subject:
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Actually, the article still holds true to this day. Not much comes out of the south. Think about it.
I personally don't mind the hip-hop culture. I find it hard to label people as hip-hop though, cause a lot of people might dress it but not live it.
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:33 Post subject:
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| Nahualli wrote: | | Vekril wrote: | | I challenge you to name 1 positive thing about the hip hop culture (not just rap music, the entire urban culture it represents). |
It promotes Freedom of Speech
*chuckles*
-Nah- |
Freddom of Speech still needs to be promoted in the US?
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Aviger
RealPoor Sensei

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1509
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:36 Post subject:
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| Scrabler wrote: |
Freddom of Speech still needs to be promoted in the US? |
Same as proper spelling for "whites" i guess.......
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:40 Post subject:
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| Aviger wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: |
Freddom of Speech still needs to be promoted in the US? |
Same as proper spelling for "whites" i guess....... |
Sorry I was rushing I had to take a shit.
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Nahualli
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 8461
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:42 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: | ROFL Nahualli
I guess you have a point there, but if that speech is Ebonics then it is still promoting shit.
touche |
Hmm.. I didn't say it promotes "proper" English (whatever that means) I just said it promotes freedom of speech... it encourages one to speak their mind. I was chuckling because I was thinking of all those annoying black chicks on cell phones we mentioned in another thread.
-Nah-
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Nahualli
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 8461
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:43 Post subject:
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| Scrabler wrote: | | Nahualli wrote: | | Vekril wrote: | | I challenge you to name 1 positive thing about the hip hop culture (not just rap music, the entire urban culture it represents). |
It promotes Freedom of Speech
*chuckles*
-Nah- |
Freddom of Speech still needs to be promoted in the US? |
What?
-Nah-
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 15 Oct 2002 Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:46 Post subject:
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Yeah Qald, that is the crucial distinction:
you can listen to hip hop and dress the style and all you are guilty of is having bad taste (in my opinion anyway!)
the failure comes in when you actually live the lifestyle - speaking Ebonics, not valuing education, having children out of wedlock at a younger age, emulating or actually engaging in the "gangsta" lifestyle, not respecting women or authority, etc etc etc
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Nahualli
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 8461
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:50 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: | | the failure comes in when you actually live the lifestyle - speaking Ebonics, not valuing education, having children out of wedlock at a younger age, emulating or actually engaging in the "gangsta" lifestyle, not respecting women or authority, etc etc etc |
This is where my problem comes in. None of those things, not a single one you pointed out are unique to the ghetto black subculture. They're universal. Blame society in general, don't blame hip hop. You don't have to like it, you don't have to tolerate it, but don't be myopic about it.
I'm not that old, but I still remember growing up in gang-infested suburbs before there was a "hip hop" culture as huge as it is now. Hip Hop is only a conduit. It's a medium. It's not the CAUSE of these problems. Don't blame hip hop.
And Ebonics is a perfectly valid form of communication, like it or not.
I don't disbelieve what that man is saying for a second, but it seems to me you're taking it and carrying it one step further and placing the blame of those same scourges in the present day on hip hop, which is a huge, huge mistake.
-Nah-
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Vekril
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 15 Oct 2002 Posts: 2525
Location: Jersey
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 17:57 Post subject:
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Nahualli, none of the things are unique to black ghetto culture or hip hop culture, but the fact that they are all found in said culture without any redeeming features is what makes it noteworthy. You are correct, hip hop is not the cause of the problems, it is just the current manifestation of urban black culture and as Sowell said, larger black culture in many cases).
As far as Ebonics, it is the language of a sub culture, and as long as it remains used in the home or within the culture it is fine. The problem now is that many urban blacks grow up speaking ONLY Ebonics, and cannot speak proper English, which prevents them from advancing in American society and escaping from the ghetto and poverty.
This quotation from the end of the article sums it up perfectly:
| Quote: | The counterproductive and self-destructive culture of black rednecks in today's ghettos is regarded by many as the only "authentic" black culture--and, for that reason, something not to be tampered with. Their talk, their attitudes, and their behavior are regarded as sacrosanct.
The people who take this view may think of themselves as friends of blacks. But they are the kinds of friends who can do more harm than enemies.
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Nahualli
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 8461
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 18:01 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: | As far as Ebonics, it is the language of a sub culture, and as long as it remains used in the home or within the culture it is fine. The problem now is that many urban blacks grow up speaking ONLY Ebonics, and cannot speak proper English, which prevents them from advancing in American society and escaping from the ghetto and poverty.
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Oh boy... here we go again.
Define "Proper English", please.
I'll tell you what your problem is Vekril, and it's not with Ebonics. You're a misanthrope. You don't like people who aren't yourself. Why don't you just come out and admit it, already? It's not like it's a bad thing.
What I see you doing is basically employing any means to make your own prejudices seem justified and "right" by citing resources left and right, and if you can't find someone famous or well paid to agree with you, well you'll just say it anyways.
I don't think your feelings towards inner city blacks are wrong or inappropriate. Don't get me wrong. It's like the tongue piercing thing.. why do you have to go out and quote Dr Betty b*****b as saying it's bad for you? Why can't you just be comfortable in saying you don't like it and you think people who do it are f*****g c***s and leaving it at that?
You kinda transcend the realm of ranting. You preach. Preaching is annoying.
-Nah-
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Scrabler
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 18:06 Post subject:
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| Vekril wrote: | Nahualli, none of the things are unique to black ghetto culture or hip hop culture, but the fact that they are all found in said culture without any redeeming features is what makes it noteworthy. You are correct, hip hop is not the cause of the problems, it is just the current manifestation of urban black culture and as Sowell said, larger black culture in many cases).
As far as Ebonics, it is the language of a sub culture, and as long as it remains used in the home or within the culture it is fine. The problem now is that many urban blacks grow up speaking ONLY Ebonics, and cannot speak proper English, which prevents them from advancing in American society and escaping from the ghetto and poverty.
This quotation from the end of the article sums it up perfectly:
| Quote: | The counterproductive and self-destructive culture of black rednecks in today's ghettos is regarded by many as the only "authentic" black culture--and, for that reason, something not to be tampered with. Their talk, their attitudes, and their behavior are regarded as sacrosanct.
The people who take this view may think of themselves as friends of blacks. But they are the kinds of friends who can do more harm than enemies.
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Ebonics is disgusting. The best thing about ebonics is it points out the n*****s who manage to hold some sort of important position. I love watching NAACP meetings on the news and listening to the leaders talk like thugs that live in the ghetto.
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