Ahnold is running for governor *NWS* :: Ultimate MMORPG Gaming Community & Trading Zone

WheresNWS
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Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 6448

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:04 Post subject:

Kbarr, I think Rennol would be happier with this:

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Nahualli
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:05 Post subject:

I think it's too much to say Davis is solely responsible for what's happening right now Abi.. you're stretching a little Before you jump down my throat, I don't think he did all he could do but to say he is SOLELY responsible is a bit much. -Nah- Last edited by Nahualli on 08/07/03 - 11:05; edited 1 time in total

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Rennol
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:05 Post subject:

Brutul - if those things were such a problem then why were they allowed to happen? Because it goes back to my original point - we were not going to attack them, they were not going to attack us. Russia desparately wanted a buffer zone, Stalin made sure that he took over the Polish Government for example to ensure that he had a puppet state in between East Germany and himself to protect against Western aggression (as had been the case for the past 100+ years in Russian history) Obviously the atrocities caused by Stalin and what not weren't cause for us to do something about it.

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Rennol
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:07 Post subject:

Heh, we should all take the time to thank Gorbachev. He saw what was coming and accepted it, didn't try to go out in a blaze of glory.

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Syke
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Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 2976
Location: Huntington Beach, CA

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:08 Post subject:

"IT'S NOT A TUMOR!"

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Luturb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 4042
Location: Livermore, California

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:10 Post subject:

My point is, the USSR was a major threat to the world, and the Cold War destroyed them without the loss of life on either side. That, in my mind, is easily worth whatever debt we built up doing it. Whether or not the USSR had any immediate plans to attack the US is irrelevant. And I agree on Gorby. He was definitely good for the US. Last edited by Luturb on 08/07/03 - 11:11; edited 1 time in total

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Guest

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:11 Post subject:

Rennol wrote:

Two nations gearing up for an attack from each other, with no intention of ever attacking each other. That was my point.

Incorrect.

We never intended on attacking the USSR but the same can't be said for them. It ended up with neither being able to attack each other, that was the end result. But if we would have slacked off and became soft you think they would not have started knocking of european countries?

Please.

An attack on europe was as important as an attack on the US to NATO. The ONLY reason the USSR didn't attack was because of our weapons buildup. If we would have became soft the USSR would still be here, stronger than ever and the ONLY superpower on the planet.

Would you feel safe wondering who they would take over next, like the borg?

Last edited by Guest on 08/07/03 - 11:12; edited 1 time in total

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Luturb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 4042
Location: Livermore, California

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:12 Post subject:

Kbarr wrote:

like the borg?

/cheer Kbarr

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Abibabi
Luke Warm

Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 158

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:13 Post subject:

One comment.. If the USSR "never intended to attack the us" why did they put nukes in Cuba ? cause they thought they looked cool there?

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Rennol
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:13 Post subject:

I think you are mis-interpreting what I am saying. The fact of the matter is that the USSR did not intend to attack the United States. Going soft is not an option, you are right Kbarr, my point as I said was that the arms race - (important part here) spiraled up into oblivion on both sides - with the same goal in mind - defense against the other. I just think it is a classic example of how two opposed factions who are fearful of each other can act in a situation; almost as a case study in human psychology.

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WheresNWS
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Joined: 19 Nov 2002
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Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:14 Post subject:

Rennol wrote:

Kbarr, quite oppositely, the USSR would not have attacked the U.S. (Although it's easy to speak in terms like this in hindsight ;)), just as we would not have attacked the USSR. The arms race spiraled up into oblivion; either nation would have been able to wipe the other off the face of the map by the 1960's.

The deterrent aspect of the arms race was the single biggest factor, that is quite true, however, the massive spending in some areas was probably uncalled for - again - hindsight is 20/20, I was just pointing out that in light of facts which have been revealed since the Cold War ended, it shows just how much of a hollow war it really was.

Two nations gearing up for an attack from each other, with no intention of ever attacking each other. That was my point.

The reason Russia did not attack us was the fact that we had nuclear weapons. They forcibly exerted their will on many other countries. They would have done the same in a heartbeat to the US if we didn't have proper deterrent. In fact, we spent less on our military. Just look at our nuclear stockpiles. Reagan was able to defeat Russia without defeating ourselves.

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Rennol
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Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:15 Post subject:

ABIBABI SHUT THE fk UP. THIS WAS ALREADY POSTED. LEARN TO READ YOU f***g PIECE OF SHIT!!!!

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Abibabi
Luke Warm

Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 158

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:16 Post subject:

Nah a few things that really p**s me off about Davis ... 1. He stole money from CA to pay off his supporters. 2. He falsified information on his budget creating money out of thin air that wasn't there to get it passed. 3. He totally mismanaged the "energy crisis" (you do realize we are now selling the energy we bougth to "save us" at a MUCH lower ammount that we bought it for) I am at work so I cant go into more detail but there's a few things he deserves to be raked over the coals for.

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Rennol
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Location: Charleston, IL

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:18 Post subject:

WheresNWS wrote:

The reason Russia did not attack us was the fact that we had nuclear weapons. They forcibly exerted their will on many other countries. They would have done the same in a heartbeat to the US if we didn't have proper deterrent. In fact, we spent less on our military. Just look at our nuclear stockpiles. Reagan was able to defeat Russia without defeating ourselves.

Ah, thank you. You are quite correct that Stalin was fearful of America's nuclear weapons - that is why he placed such a high emphasis on capturing as much of Germany's research and uranium oxide ore at the end of WW2 as he could. You are again correct that we spent less on our military, and therein lies the secret of our victory - we didn't overspend ourselves into oblivion as they did. We were lucky - looking at it in hindsight, based on the direction we took as opposed to the direction they took. Their arms build up combined with the economic principles they advocated led them to their doom without a shot being fired. Now, as long as we apply these lessons in the future, we'll be ok Wink

Case closed.

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Abibabi
Luke Warm

Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 158

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:19 Post subject:

ha ha ha .. I am reading Rennol and have yet to read anything from you that produces any evidence other than "beacuse you say so" Proof please

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WheresNWS
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Joined: 19 Nov 2002
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Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:19 Post subject:

Rennol wrote:

I think you are mis-interpreting what I am saying. The fact of the matter is that the USSR did not intend to attack the United States. Going soft is not an option, you are right Kbarr, my point as I said was that the arms race - (important part here) spiraled up into oblivion on both sides - with the same goal in mind - defense against the other.

I just think it is a classic example of how two opposed factions who are fearful of each other can act in a situation; almost as a case study in human psychology.

I agree with you on a technicality. I don't think the Russia had immediate plans to attack the US, but that was only because of our nuclear buildup. If we did not have the defenses that we did I'm sure they would have expanded, much like they did in Europe, Vietnam and Korea.

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Guest

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:21 Post subject:

Rennol wrote:

I think you are mis-interpreting what I am saying. The fact of the matter is that the USSR did not intend to attack the United States. Going soft is not an option, you are right Kbarr, my point as I said was that the arms race - (important part here) spiraled up into oblivion on both sides - with the same goal in mind - defense against the other.

I just think it is a classic example of how two opposed factions who are fearful of each other can act in a situation; almost as a case study in human psychology.

No, your point was that Ronnie saved us from nothing.

You were wrong.

He was the MAIN reason we won this cold war, we bankrupted the USSR with the arms race. The could not compete with us.

If we would have become soft(we didn't and Reagan was a major reason for this) we would have LOST the cold war.

Reagan saved us from a strong USSR who could have been the only super power left standing.

They lost , we won. We are here, the USSR isn't.

Thank Reagan for that.

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WheresNWS
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Joined: 19 Nov 2002
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Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:23 Post subject:

Rennol wrote:

WheresNWS wrote:

The reason Russia did not attack us was the fact that we had nuclear weapons. They forcibly exerted their will on many other countries. They would have done the same in a heartbeat to the US if we didn't have proper deterrent. In fact, we spent less on our military. Just look at our nuclear stockpiles. Reagan was able to defeat Russia without defeating ourselves.

Ah, thank you. You are quite correct that Stalin was fearful of America's nuclear weapons - that is why he placed such a high emphasis on capturing as much of Germany's research and uranium oxide ore at the end of WW2 as he could. You are again correct that we spent less on our military, and therein lies the secret of our victory - we didn't overspend ourselves into oblivion as they did. We were lucky - looking at it in hindsight, based on the direction we took as opposed to the direction they took. Their arms build up combined with the economic principles they advocated led them to their doom without a shot being fired. Now, as long as we apply these lessons in the future, we'll be ok ;) Case closed.

Fortunately, 20 years ago Reagan had what you now call "hindsight". Only back then it was "foresight."

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Abibabi
Luke Warm

Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 158

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:25 Post subject:

TYVM Kbarr ... very nicely put

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Nahualli
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Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:32 Post subject:

Of course he did Abi, that is not my point. His management of the budget exacerbated an already bad situation. State managed power is a bad bad thing and in the recent energy fiasco, LA of all places ended up making out like bandits because all their power is managed by the municipal, not the state commission. Everyone else relied on the state to regulate power, and we all ended up getting f***d. Again, Abi.. in case you missed it.. I'm not exonerating him of anything. His whole incumbency has been overall lackluster, nothing really to offset what's happening now. He donated to libraries.. twirls finger*.. however, I believe your claim he is solely responsible for anything is heavy handed, and I also think that the current recall circus is an even worse situation and its only going to get worse. -Nah-

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WheresNWS
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Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:35 Post subject:

Nahualli wrote:

I also think that the current recall circus is an even worse situation and its only going to get worse.

It'll make for good entertainment for us non-Californians, though!

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atarom
Guest

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:38 Post subject:

this guy is weird.

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Nahualli
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8461

Posted: 08/07/03 - 11:40 Post subject:

WheresNWS wrote:

Nahualli wrote:

I also think that the current recall circus is an even worse situation and its only going to get worse.

It'll make for good entertainment for us non-Californians, though!

Don't get me wrong.. it'll be good fun for us locals too...

It's just that we'll have to pay the taxes to cover this mess up afterwards

-Nah-

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Megalo
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Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 682

Posted: 08/07/03 - 12:19 Post subject:

Quote:

3. He totally mismanaged the "energy crisis" (you do realize we are now selling the energy we bougth to "save us" at a MUCH lower ammount that we bought it for)

1.) Not only did he mismanage it, but the most soft money he received at any one time during his tenure came from *drum roll* ...........ENRON!

2.) He blocked a bill a few years ago that would have built more power plants as well.

3.) He owned lots of stock in Enron.

For years, people knew the energy crisis was coming. Enron paid Gray Davis a lot of money to block that bill to build new power plants. Gray Davis bought up Enron stock, knowing that California would soon be buying energy from Enron. Stock goes way up, Gray Davis makes tons of money.

He didn't mismanage it, he ENGINEERED it.

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WheresNWS
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Posted: 08/07/03 - 12:21 Post subject:

Stupid! Only repubicans take soft money from big evil corporations!!!

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Therros
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Posted: 08/07/03 - 12:24 Post subject:

Let's see. We all agree that both the US and USSR feared the other's agression. We all agree that both sides were fighting for control of puppet nations that were being used to spread 'defensive space' or 'influence'. Many would agree that Russia was doing this much more blatently and aggressively, but that's another debate. What can't really be debated is that a bloodless war was begun. An economic war of building weapons that made war an impossibility without mutually assured destruction. You can say we got 'lucky' but I believe most USSR generals that have made statements on the Cold War called the US government 'geniuses' when it came to controlling how the Cold War was fought, and ramping it up to a level where the USSR couldn't keep up. We are speaking about the the first and only bloodless war of that scale in history. The biggest two powers to ever stand against each other in history. One side fell. One side still stands and is now being call a 'hyperpower' because superpower just doesn't seem to apply to the power that the USA has right now. One goverment lead our country through most of this Cold War. It's hard not to give them credit for the cleanest (in terms of loss of life)global victory in the history of the world. As was stated. We can say it worked in hindsight... that's easy. The Reagan administration (yeah his administration, I doubt he made many decisions on his own, but he is to be commended for getting the right people and having those people make the decisions) made the right decisions BEFORE they knew the outcome. They won. Like it or not, respect it or not, they won.