|
|
| Author |
Message |
Conqueso
Luke Warm
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 388
|
 Posted: 10/17/04 - 12:22 Post subject:
|
|
|
I saw the comments mentioned about the "how do you compare WWII and the war in Iraq?" I stumbled on something interesting: an email exchange between a blogger named Medienkritik, a Bush supporter, and George Soros, a Kerry supporter, financer, and campaigner. The exchange of emails mainly touches on the area of "can a democracy be formed from military means," but during the discussion, alot of the common arguments about the war in Iraq are encountered. Inside the discussion, the blogger provides 3 links (I'll link those below so people don't have to dig) of previous articles that directly cover some comparisons between WWII and Iraq. Well, take what you want from it. Medienkritik could of gone a lot more into his discussions but the site is not a thesis paper. I guess at a minimum it is interesting to see the two viewpoints plus I learned a few things I didnt know about Mexico's involvement in WWII.
Medienkritik vs. George Soros
Did Franklin Roosevelt Take His Eye off the Ball?
Wrong War, Wrong Place, Wrong Time?
Have We Learned Nothing?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
 |
Majy
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1713
|
|
Posted: 10/17/04 - 12:28 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
haha, I enjoyed the Hitler picture/quote... clever.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
|
|
Posted: 10/17/04 - 12:38 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Majy wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: |
Yeah, it must suck not being the best country. |
haha, but then you have to define what makes a country "the best," and everyone would define it differently... but then again, that's politics =P |
Well, I say we are the best because of four main things:
1. We have more freedom or are on par with all other countries.
2. We have the most powerful military for both offense and defense.
3. We have the largest hand in the world's economy.
4. You can be/make almost anything you want to if you have the will to do so.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
shinja mayoke
Luke Warm
Joined: 04 Jan 2003
Posts: 434
|
|
Posted: 10/17/04 - 16:34 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Scrabler wrote: | | Majy wrote: | My only concern with the war is Bush saying such things as how we're on a "crusade" and how "God told [him]" that we need to destroy their people. Seems as if him, Saddam, and Bin Laden should just all have a f*****g tea party and talk about how they're all whackjobs, then dance around like turkeys firing nukes in the air.
How the hell does he think he's any better with the same freakin reasoning? |
They kill innocent people.
We kill the killers of the innocent. |
f****n A Scrabler...
We are Batman!!!
ON a serious note, you whiney fucktard liberals only get to say what you think in those pea sized brains of yours because we have 200 years of asskicking to protect your freedom of speech.
A country in our position must maintain a strong front...when Rome stopped kicking ass...well I guess one day people can visit the ruins here and think about the great empire that was once called the United States...
Oh and btw when you start attacking the grammar and spelling of people on f*****g REALPOOR instead of their arguement...you pretty much concede your point.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
SkilledShaman
Luke Warm
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 159
|
|
Posted: 10/17/04 - 16:58 Post subject:
|
|
|
but hey, megalo, gas prices dropped another cent that day!
Vote Kerry '04
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Megalo
Can't Stop Posting
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 682
|
|
Posted: 10/18/04 - 03:17 Post subject:
|
|
|
Who's administration has gas prices at an all time high?
Crazy his family makes money off of oil, AIN'T it?@!
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Kurel
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1877
Location: Cali
|
|
Posted: 10/18/04 - 05:20 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Conqueso wrote: | I saw the comments mentioned about the "how do you compare WWII and the war in Iraq?" I stumbled on something interesting: an email exchange between a blogger named Medienkritik, a Bush supporter, and George Soros, a Kerry supporter, financer, and campaigner. The exchange of emails mainly touches on the area of "can a democracy be formed from military means," but during the discussion, alot of the common arguments about the war in Iraq are encountered. Inside the discussion, the blogger provides 3 links (I'll link those below so people don't have to dig) of previous articles that directly cover some comparisons between WWII and Iraq. Well, take what you want from it. Medienkritik could of gone a lot more into his discussions but the site is not a thesis paper. I guess at a minimum it is interesting to see the two viewpoints plus I learned a few things I didnt know about Mexico's involvement in WWII.
Medienkritik vs. George Soros
Did Franklin Roosevelt Take His Eye off the Ball?
Wrong War, Wrong Place, Wrong Time?
Have We Learned Nothing? |
Good articles.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Kurel
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1877
Location: Cali
|
|
Posted: 10/18/04 - 05:20 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Megalo wrote: | Who's administration has gas prices at an all time high?
Crazy his family makes money off of oil, AIN'T it?@! |
You do realize that Americans pay far less for gas then any other nation in the world right?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
shinja mayoke
Luke Warm
Joined: 04 Jan 2003
Posts: 434
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 01:39 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Kurel wrote: | | Megalo wrote: | Who's administration has gas prices at an all time high?
Crazy his family makes money off of oil, AIN'T it?@! |
You do realize that Americans pay far less for gas then any other nation in the world right? |
Of course they dont realize that.
Or that the earth is round.
Or that we really, honest to god, landed on the moon.
Or that there are these tiny little things called germs that can cause infections when you f**k goats.
Bunch of damn gas price b*****n non-round earth believing anti moon landin goatfuckers is what they are.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 04:09 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Kurel wrote: | | Megalo wrote: | Who's administration has gas prices at an all time high?
Crazy his family makes money off of oil, AIN'T it?@! |
You do realize that Americans pay far less for gas then any other nation in the world right? |
Amd do you realize we depend on gas more then any other nation?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Kurel
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1877
Location: Cali
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 05:34 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Orbit wrote: | | Kurel wrote: | | Megalo wrote: | Who's administration has gas prices at an all time high?
Crazy his family makes money off of oil, AIN'T it?@! |
You do realize that Americans pay far less for gas then any other nation in the world right? |
Amd do you realize we depend on gas more then any other nation? |
Which is why we're in Iraq, thank you come again!
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 06:25 Post subject:
|
|
|
Oh I see we started a war over OIL... Make sense to me.. And I thought it was over WMD.. 
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Kurel
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1877
Location: Cali
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 06:37 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Orbit wrote: | | Oh I see we started a war over OIL... Make sense to me.. And I thought it was over WMD.. |
No, it had a lot of reasons.The Oil is a big perk. Kind of a bonus for us when we took over Iraq.
See, when your number 1, you want to stay number 1. How do you do that? You control as much resources as possible.
The Japanese lost WWII because they lacked oil and the resources they needed to drive their war machine. Their Generals even told their Emperor that they'd lose 6 months after Pearl Harbor because that's when they'd start having to ration fuel. Sure enough, approx 6 months after PH, we (the Americans) won the Battle at Midway Island, effectivly turning the tide of the Pacific War and ultimatly defeating the Japanese.
During the Battle of the Bulge, the German push through Western Europe came to a halt because they didn't have the fuel they needed for their Panzers.
Now say 20 years from now, the U.S. gets into a conflict with China, or North Korea. We're going to need all the oil we can get to defeat those slant-eyed bastards in the name of democracy.
Oil = Fuel for our jets, tanks, plastis for our armor, guns and grips. Oil = Power. Therefore, we want to control as much of it as possible.
A smart and wise man said, he who controls the most gold (or oil in this case) makes the rules. We're tired of OPEC, so we're going to start making our own rules for how WE want to distrubt oil, who can have it, and how much it costs. Instead of getting stuck with a high bill from some b*****d in another country.
You need to stop bullshitting yourself about the world being a friendly, flower power place where everyone can get a long, white and black, muslim and jew, and come to the same conclusion that I did. The world is a very brutal and nasty place, and the only way you're going to get what you want is if you take it. In order to ensure your survival, your enemies are going to have to die, that's just the cold truth of life since the dawn of man, and will continue to be so long after I'm long dead and your childerns childern are gone from this Earth.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Obmar
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1934
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 07:14 Post subject:
|
|
|
wow
so... war for oil=good in Kurel's mind
i really just have nothing to say there....
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 09:16 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Kurel wrote: | | Orbit wrote: | | Oh I see we started a war over OIL... Make sense to me.. And I thought it was over WMD.. |
No, it had a lot of reasons.The Oil is a big perk. Kind of a bonus for us when we took over Iraq.
See, when your number 1, you want to stay number 1. How do you do that? You control as much resources as possible.
The Japanese lost WWII because they lacked oil and the resources they needed to drive their war machine. Their Generals even told their Emperor that they'd lose 6 months after Pearl Harbor because that's when they'd start having to ration fuel. Sure enough, approx 6 months after PH, we (the Americans) won the Battle at Midway Island, effectivly turning the tide of the Pacific War and ultimatly defeating the Japanese.
During the Battle of the Bulge, the German push through Western Europe came to a halt because they didn't have the fuel they needed for their Panzers.
Now say 20 years from now, the U.S. gets into a conflict with China, or North Korea. We're going to need all the oil we can get to defeat those slant-eyed bastards in the name of democracy.
Oil = Fuel for our jets, tanks, plastis for our armor, guns and grips. Oil = Power. Therefore, we want to control as much of it as possible.
A smart and wise man said, he who controls the most gold (or oil in this case) makes the rules. We're tired of OPEC, so we're going to start making our own rules for how WE want to distrubt oil, who can have it, and how much it costs. Instead of getting stuck with a high bill from some b*****d in another country.
You need to stop bullshitting yourself about the world being a friendly, flower power place where everyone can get a long, white and black, muslim and jew, and come to the same conclusion that I did. The world is a very brutal and nasty place, and the only way you're going to get what you want is if you take it. In order to ensure your survival, your enemies are going to have to die, that's just the cold truth of life since the dawn of man, and will continue to be so long after I'm long dead and your childerns childern are gone from this Earth. |
So when are you signing up? Your prime age to go over there and make sure we get that "gold".
Thought so! 
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Trebel
Luke Warm
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 213
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 11:13 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
Ok then Megalo vote for Kerry. Its not like he voted for the war after reviewing the exact same intelligence as Bush. I am sorry but Bush seems to be taking unilateral blame for Iraq, when the congress approved the resolution. The congress saw the same intelligence Bush did and approved the war, so get on their asses too if you disprove of the war.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 11:38 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Trebel wrote: | | Ok then Megalo vote for Kerry. Its not like he voted for the war after reviewing the exact same intelligence as Bush. I am sorry but Bush seems to be taking unilateral blame for Iraq, when the congress approved the resolution. The congress saw the same intelligence Bush did and approved the war, so get on their asses too if you disprove of the war. |
We've covered this before here, the left wingers here seem to feel that just because the majority of senators/representatives (including the democrat ticket for president) voted to give the President the authority to act, regardless of UN authorization mind you, that they are not at fault. b******t I say.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
themy
Sir Postalot
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 1153
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 12:33 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
and orbit, if your consumption is so high and the prices are so much lower than other countries this should flip a switch in a normal person's head. hrmm maybe prices are actually cheaper since demand is so high and the price is still low, especially relative to other nations.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Lillyannya
Luke Warm
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 451
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 13:48 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Scrabler wrote: | | Majy wrote: | Not that I want to protect them or anything, and I'm not a hippie liberal wanting peace and love and shit... but a couple of things, just to play devils advocate:
1) In their eyes, we are not innocent. Their culture would accuse us of many fallacies and religious wrongs. Who is the U.S. to tell others how to live their lives and run their countries? (the age-old question)
2) Do you HONESTLY think we're not killing innocents over there? We've killed thousands. If you think Osama is in a house, you bomb the house... turns out it was just 20 women and children? Whoops! |
1. Who gives a f**k what they think..the majority of the world knows it's wrong to target an innocent person because they don't follow your beliefs/religion.
2. Of course we kill innocent civis it happens in a war. The difference is we kill a few by accident and if we could change the fact we would. The terrorists turn themselves into bombs and run into a crowd of children. |
Don't you like how he says we only killed a few by accident. There's thousands, to me that's more then a few!
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 13:57 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Frax wrote: | | Trebel wrote: | | Ok then Megalo vote for Kerry. Its not like he voted for the war after reviewing the exact same intelligence as Bush. I am sorry but Bush seems to be taking unilateral blame for Iraq, when the congress approved the resolution. The congress saw the same intelligence Bush did and approved the war, so get on their asses too if you disprove of the war. |
We've covered this before here, the left wingers here seem to feel that just because the majority of senators/representatives (including the democrat ticket for president) voted to give the President the authority to act, regardless of UN authorization mind you, that they are not at fault. b******t I say. |
And WHO brought this to the senators and Representatives? Who Idea was it to do it regardless of the UN? Stop the SPINNING geeeze
You only saw ONE person on that ship with the sign claiming we won!
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Trebel
Luke Warm
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 213
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 14:52 Post subject:
|
|
|
Spinning? You want to talk about spinning. Who brought the draft resolution to congress? 2 Democrats. Who is attempting to spin that into Bush supporting a draft? Democrats
The fact remains that even though he brought the resolution forth, THEY SUPPORTED IT. If they thought that what he was doing was wrong, they need only to vote no. Them voting yes says that 1.) They though Saddam had WOMD based on the same intel reports Bush saw 2.) They felt that he was a threat and 3.) That the war was necessary. There is no spin there. They voted for it, they approved of it.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 15:16 Post subject:
|
|
|
No the FACT is since this war is turning bad. You all are trying to spread the blame. He started the ball rolling he had HIS plan and he put it forth.
It was his job to make sure the documents was VAILD before passing it on. Yeah some of the blame can be passed if that helps you. But he is the one that is held accountable for the direction we take in this country he has the FINAL say so.. Understand now?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 15:33 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Orbit wrote: | No the FACT is since this war is turning bad. You all are trying to spread the blame. He started the ball rolling he had HIS plan and he put it forth.
It was his job to make sure the documents was VAILD before passing it on. Yeah some of the blame can be passed if that helps you. But he is the one that is held accountable for the direction we take in this country he has the FINAL say so.. Understand now? |
Wow you really think the president of the USA can verify the work of 20,000 intelligence analysts? All the while meeting every leader in the world, attending meetings, giving speeches, signing bills, and basically running the country? When does the man get time to drop his pants and take a shit? The thought that the president should have quadruple checked the homework of the CIA is, to be quite blunt, a stupid f*****g idea.
Thats all you people are about is assessing blame instead of getting with the program and helping solve the problem.
Two weeks left before Kerry becomes the next Mondale/Dukakis/Gore.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 15:46 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Frax wrote: | | Orbit wrote: | No the FACT is since this war is turning bad. You all are trying to spread the blame. He started the ball rolling he had HIS plan and he put it forth.
It was his job to make sure the documents was VAILD before passing it on. Yeah some of the blame can be passed if that helps you. But he is the one that is held accountable for the direction we take in this country he has the FINAL say so.. Understand now? |
Wow you really think the president of the USA can verify the work of 20,000 intelligence analysts? All the while meeting every leader in the world, attending meetings, giving speeches, signing bills, and basically running the country? When does the man get time to drop his pants and take a shit? The thought that the president should have quadruple checked the homework of the CIA is, to be quite blunt, a stupid f*****g idea.
Thats all you people are about is assessing blame instead of getting with the program and helping solve the problem.
Two weeks left before Kerry becomes the next Mondale/Dukakis/Gore. |
Oh so he handles everything GOD BLESS him! (Oh I forgot he has) He could had his "helpers" do the research. There was NO threat booming over the horizon he should have taken the time.
What problem? The war he started? I have stated before since its started now we are in it for the long haul. Even his father KNEW there was going to be a problem exiting this war. I have NEVER put down the troops over there. I have put the BLAME on bush for us being there though.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Scrabler
RealPoor Guru
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 2660
Location: Mobile, AL
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 16:48 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Lillyannya wrote: | | Scrabler wrote: | | Majy wrote: | Not that I want to protect them or anything, and I'm not a hippie liberal wanting peace and love and shit... but a couple of things, just to play devils advocate:
1) In their eyes, we are not innocent. Their culture would accuse us of many fallacies and religious wrongs. Who is the U.S. to tell others how to live their lives and run their countries? (the age-old question)
2) Do you HONESTLY think we're not killing innocents over there? We've killed thousands. If you think Osama is in a house, you bomb the house... turns out it was just 20 women and children? Whoops! |
1. Who gives a f**k what they think..the majority of the world knows it's wrong to target an innocent person because they don't follow your beliefs/religion.
2. Of course we kill innocent civis it happens in a war. The difference is we kill a few by accident and if we could change the fact we would. The terrorists turn themselves into bombs and run into a crowd of children. |
Don't you like how he says we only killed a few by accident. There's thousands, to me that's more then a few! |
Well, a couple thousand is tiny compared to a couple million under Saddam. And the accidental civi deaths are a small price to pay to free the whole country of what, 56 million?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Trebel
Luke Warm
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 213
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 17:26 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
Orbit you are so f*****g stupid. His helpers are the ones who compile the briefs and who gather the intelligence. In case you also aren't familiar with the government, we have a system of checks and balances. That means that if a bill is introduced, it cannot be pushed through unilaterally by one person. The president introduced the war resolution, but the congress (with democrats and republicans both voting yes) supported it with the same intel he had. What the democrats are trying to do is focus the blame because they don't want people to realize that Kerry is resposible for the war too, because he voted yes.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Orbit
Luke Warm
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 17:32 Post subject:
|
|
|
|
Ok Sorry I got it now.. People under Bush didnt do thier job correctly? and gave FALSE ito congress under Bush approval. Ok now I understand...
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Trebel
Luke Warm
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 213
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 17:42 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Orbit wrote: | | Ok Sorry I got it now.. People under Bush didnt do thier job correctly? and gave FALSE ito congress under Bush approval. Ok now I understand... |
So are you implying that Bush knew the information was false when it was diseminated to congress? Bush trusted the validity of the intelligence the same as everyone who voted for the resolution. The "people" under bush who didn't do their job would be the CIA, a non-partisan organization. So blame bush for the CIA? Go ahead, he was misled by their intelligence. If you blame him though, then you also need to blame every single congressmen who supported the war resolution.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 18:33 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Orbit wrote: | | Ok Sorry I got it now.. People under Bush didnt do thier job correctly? and gave FALSE ito congress under Bush approval. Ok now I understand... |
people like you make the baby jesus cry IRL.
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
Kurel
RealPoor Sensei
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1877
Location: Cali
|
|
Posted: 10/19/04 - 22:42 Post subject:
|
|
|
| Orbit wrote: | No the FACT is since this war is turning bad. You all are trying to spread the blame. He started the ball rolling he had HIS plan and he put it forth.
It was his job to make sure the documents was VAILD before passing it on. Yeah some of the blame can be passed if that helps you. But he is the one that is held accountable for the direction we take in this country he has the FINAL say so.. Understand now? |
Please explain how the war is going badly?
Iraq will be having their first free elections in over 100 years by January. How is that bad?
|
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
