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Bait Masterson
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 3842
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 13:34 Post subject: 3 Strikes for petty crime is b******t
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Criminal justice
Duncan Campbell investigates why a Californian law is being outrageously misapplied to lock up non-violent petty offenders for life
Tuesday March 11, 2003
What would you think a suitable punishment would be for shoplifting $153 worth of videos? A hefty fine? Probation? Community service?
Five members of the United States' supreme court and the governor of California, Gray Davis, believe that the appropriate sentence for this offence is 50 years.
Last week, the supreme court, by a majority of five to four, decided that 50 years for stealing $153 worth of videos was not a "cruel and unusual punishment" for Leandro Andrade, a heroin addict, who had stolen such videos as Cinderella and Free Willy as presents for his children.
Andrade, who has no convictions for violence, was jailed for 50 years in 1995 at the age of 37, because he had committed three felonies and, under California's "three strikes" law, was thus eligible for a minimum sentence of 25 years.
Because the videos had been stolen in different acts of shoplifting separated by two weeks, the sentence was doubled. The supreme court represented his final legal hope of being free before his death.
The members of the court who voted this way were Sandra Day O'Connor, chief justice William Rehnquist, Anthony Kennedy, Atonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas. Scalia and Thomas went so far as to say that they could not conceive of a prison sentence that was "cruel and unusual."
When their decision was announced, it was welcomed by Governor Davis, a Democrat who once had aspirations for the presidency, as being a "good day for California."
In years to come, people will look back at this judgment, and the way in which it was greeted by Governor Davis, in much the way that we now look back on the hanging of people for stealing a sheep and the self-serving ways in which it was justified by judges and politicians at the time.
In Nigeria, we are rightly appalled by a sentence of death by stoning for adultery. Many are horrified by the punishment and amputation of limbs for theft in Saudi Arabia. But jailing someone for ever for shoplifting - which is what the supreme court and Governor Davis have endorsed - exhibits the same sense of casual sadism.
There are 333 similar cases of life sentences now being served in California for non-violent petty theft. A further 650 people are serving such sentences for the possession of small quantities of drugs.
This Monday, there was a meeting in south central Los Angeles of families, friends and supporters of people jailed under the three strikes law. Some of them had been at Leandro Andrade's supreme court hearing and said that the majority members had made it clear they had little interest in the case. According to one of those present, Clarence Thomas appeared so bored by the procedure that he "almost had his feet up on the desk".
Some of the families had maintained a flicker of hope that any court that took an oath to uphold justice would have to acknowledge that 50 years for minor shoplifting could not be anything other than cruel and unusual.
Another group present, Families to Amend California's Three Strikes (FACTS, at www.facts1.com), had already resigned themselves to the fact that the law - "this unholy law", as one FACTS member described it - will have to be changed at the ballot box or in the legislature. Assemblywoman Jackie Goldberg has been trying to amend the law in the state legislature so that it does not apply to non-violent minor offences, but with little success so far.
Few other politicians have the guts to risk being called soft on crime. To this end, a campaign is already under way to get the 600,000 or so signatures in California that will amend the law via a proposition in 2004, and to gather the money that such a campaign will need. Campaigns are expensive, as Governor Davis knows: the prison guards' union, an enthusiastic supporter of the three strikes law that helps to keep them gainfully employed, bankrolled his gubernatorial campaign to the tune of $2m. It must reckon it money well spent.
But it is worth going back to why this law was introduced. It was brought in because of the horrific abduction and murder of a girl called Polly Klaas, by a violent multiple offender who should not have been on the streets. In the understandable outrage that followed the killing, the law was passed.
It was never intended to be used to lock up non-violent minor offenders. Which is why one of the most vocal and prominent supporters of the campaign to amend the law is Polly Klaas's grandfather, Joe Klaas. It is sad that neither the majority side of the supreme court nor the governor's office has been able to attract people of similar courage and compassion.
Email
duncan.campbell@guardian.co.uk
Link to story
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,912024,00.html
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sinrakin
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 7044
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 13:40 Post subject:
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Actually, I don't have that much of a problem with the 3 strikes law. The point seems to be to weed out career criminals - people who have had enough chances. They're responsible for the largest deterioration in the quality of life in their area, not the guy who makes one or two mistakes.
That said, it does seem harsh for a relatively minor offense. It seems to me what's more appropriate is an upgrade of what's considered a felony. Especially if it's based on dollar amounts, which may not have been adjust over the years.
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Docter
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 3420
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 13:40 Post subject:
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Well, this may stop some from committing crimes in the first place.
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Gravelbeard
Luke Warm

Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 203
Location: Port Saint Lucie Florida
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 13:45 Post subject:
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Doc I think thats the whole point.
If all you get is a slap on the wrist for petty crime what is to stop someone from doing it over and over and over and over and over.... A few more cases like this and I think even the most dumb ass criminal might think twice about commiting a crime.... nah on second thought most dumb ass criminals will still do the crime.
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atarom
Guest
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 13:47 Post subject:
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lol it's like cats cradle...
with the hook.
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Reebo
Sir Postalot

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1260
Location: Downtown Miami
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:06 Post subject:
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The only thing i see wrong with the three strikes rule is this.
It has been reported that many police officer fear going after someone on their third strike. They say many come out shooting because they have nothing to lose.
They say most 2 strike offenders will be more likely to kill because either way they are getting life and if you live somewhere where there is no death penalty then this makes it worse.
But on the other hand i agree 3 is more then enough but i do think some exceptions should be made on a case by case basis.
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USA
Fresh Meat

Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 7
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:06 Post subject:
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This is funny, a republican voter is complaining about his republican supreme court.
Oddly enough the supreme court is split at 5 republicans , 4 democrates.
Its only your vote in action, why post a complaint.
just vote differently.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:10 Post subject:
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If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Sentences for crimes are supposed to serve two purposes, one as punishment, and the other as a deterrent to others.
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USA
Fresh Meat

Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 7
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:12 Post subject:
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one must commend Frax for his statement about doing the crime and doing the time, after all, he created a human warrior and has been doing the time ever since.
nice to see a man who stands behind his words
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Bait Masterson
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 3842
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:13 Post subject:
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isnt it in the constitution to prevent Cruel and unusual punishment? 50 years for stealing a few videocassettes pretty much sounds cruel to me.
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USA
Fresh Meat

Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 7
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:16 Post subject:
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then vote against the republican party.
-also- note, if that was truely the case, EverQuest would allow frax to change his race to Ogre.
playing a human warrior to level 65 is indeed cruel and unusual.
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Frax
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 8489
Location: Fuck yoiu fucking fuckers
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:17 Post subject:
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Stealing is wrong. Period. If you make a habit of it you deserve increasing punishment for each offense.
And USA, the single best warrior in all of EQ is a human warrior!
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Xzander NecroMonk
Luke Warm

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 169
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:22 Post subject:
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"then vote against the republican party."
Isn't Gray Davis a democrat?
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Bait Masterson
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 3842
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:29 Post subject:
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3 strikes is a california thing, I have no chance to influence jack shit there with any vote I make here.
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Brash
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 20 Oct 2002 Posts: 3958
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:30 Post subject:
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in cali , 90% of the crimes are commited by 10% of the criminals . The idea is to lock up the habitual offenders. IF ya get get "cought" doing three felonies, god only knows how meny you have really commited. The only thing unique about cali law is that it provieds for minior crimes to be charged as felonies if you have prior offences .
I personaly have no problem with this law. It targets the habitual felons the people doing 90% of the crimes.
EDIT.
remember he is not being punished for steeling some videos . its because he is a habitual felon. I'd like to point out while it does say the other two crimes are non- volient it doesnt say what they are . IF i remember right its home burglary . While not violent , it sure is a major come to break into someones home and rip them off. we are not talking about some angle who stole some videos
Last edited by Brash on 03/11/03 - 14:41; edited 1 time in total
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Maelstrom
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 4072
Location: Montréal
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:34 Post subject:
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How about 3 crimes a bullet?
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Aluaeia
Guest
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:47 Post subject:
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Desperate people with nothing to lose is a bad thing.
Habitual offenders should have their punishments ramped up, but life or near-life imprisonment for relatively minor offenses is overkill. The most serious punishments (life imprisonment or the death penalty) should be reserved only for the most serious of crimes.
Personally however, I believe that more 'creative' punishments would have more of a deterrent effect on the criminal populace than simply increased jail time. Oh, and public executions also.
Bring back the guillotine!
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Akronn
Guest
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 14:53 Post subject:
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| Bait Masterson wrote: | | isnt it in the constitution to prevent Cruel and unusual punishment? 50 years for stealing a few videocassettes pretty much sounds cruel to me. |
Who cares? Watch your own back by not stealing and let the other knuckleheads ruin their lives. In the end, there's only one loser here (the criminal) and tons of winners (society).
Seems like a good deal to me.
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Kbarr
Guest
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 15:00 Post subject:
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They don't tell you what his priors are. Most likely they are a combination of these..
Robbery, plead down to a larceny..BINGO! thats non violent.
Drug dealing.
Weapons possesion, not used in a crime, BINGO! non violent.
Felony theft.
Burglary.
f**k this junkie scumbag, lock him up and toss the key. I don't mind paying 12 cents in taxes a month for the rest of his/my life, to keep him in the big bald monkey cage. Besides it keeps alots of hard working people in jobs, watching all these scumbags!!!
This is the payoff from having conservative presidents. Conservative judges. Bush might be out in 19 months but thats not important. Whats important is the judges he appoints, they are the ones who really make policy.
Anyway, whats the big deal, jail can be FUN!!!!
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Brash
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 20 Oct 2002 Posts: 3958
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 15:04 Post subject:
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| Reebo wrote: | The only thing i see wrong with the three strikes rule is this.
It has been reported that many police officer fear going after someone on their third strike. They say many come out shooting because they have nothing to lose.
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sure sounds like this is the type of people i dont want walking the streets
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lotek
RealPoor Sensei

Joined: 12 Oct 2002 Posts: 1598
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 17:17 Post subject:
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The more important issue is that the supreme court basically ruled in favor of states rights in this case. Now to see if they will support states rights for other california cases such as med mj.
somehow I doubt they will.
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atarom
Guest
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 17:19 Post subject:
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why would those be similar at all?
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Brash
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 20 Oct 2002 Posts: 3958
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 17:27 Post subject:
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| lotek wrote: | The more important issue is that the supreme court basically ruled in favor of states rights in this case. Now to see if they will support states rights for other california cases such as med mj.
somehow I doubt they will. |
that is 100% differnt . in no way the same. There is a federal law on Pot . Federal law will always be inforced over state law.
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Xion
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 2117
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 17:38 Post subject:
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career criminals should be locked up for life...you got 2 shots at rehabilitation, now get the f**k out of my neighborhood.
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Zapper
RealPoor Sensei

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1512
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 17:40 Post subject:
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f**k him, let him rot in jail.
Because of habitual criminals like him I pay higher prices for everything. Who do you think pays for the goods people shoplift? The stores raise their prices to make up for the losses. You and I end up paying for all the shit he stole. Without people like him you would pay less for everything you buy, yes everything because people steal shit from everywhere.
Why should I feel sorry for some fuckup who thinks he can just go and steal shit when I work my ass off for 8 hours+ a day to buy the things I need. I feel no pity for him he shouldn't have stolen anything in the first place. There are ton's of things I can't afford you don't see me stealing them.
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Brash
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 20 Oct 2002 Posts: 3958
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 17:45 Post subject:
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yet like evryone here steels music or software
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sinrakin
RealPoor Master of Posts

Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 7044
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 17:49 Post subject:
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| Brash wrote: | | yet like evryone here steels music or software |
We have conventions about what you're allowed to steal. If you're an upper class executive, you can steal millions and it's basically cool. Middle class: you can steal software, music, and office supplies. Lower class: you're f****d whatever you do.
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Kbarr
Guest
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 18:13 Post subject:
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| sinrakin wrote: | | Brash wrote: | | yet like evryone here steels music or software |
We have conventions about what you're allowed to steal. If you're an upper class executive, you can steal millions and it's basically cool. Middle class: you can steal software, music, and office supplies. Lower class: you're f****d whatever you do. |
I could give a shit if misc scumbag junkie DLs music from the internet. I do care if the computer he DLs it on was stolen from my bedroom 3 nights earlier.
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Aluaeia
Guest
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 18:37 Post subject:
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| Zapper wrote: | f**k him, let him rot in jail.
Because of habitual criminals like him I pay higher prices for everything. Who do you think pays for the goods people shoplift? The stores raise their prices to make up for the losses. You and I end up paying for all the shit he stole. Without people like him you would pay less for everything you buy, yes everything because people steal shit from everywhere.
Why should I feel sorry for some fuckup who thinks he can just go and steal shit when I work my ass off for 8 hours+ a day to buy the things I need. I feel no pity for him he shouldn't have stolen anything in the first place. There are ton's of things I can't afford you don't see me stealing them. |
If you don't lock the thieves up, you pay higher prices from the stores victimized by thievery.
If you do lock the thieves up, you pay higher taxes to keep them imprisoned.
You don't win either way.
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Brash
RealPoor Guru

Joined: 20 Oct 2002 Posts: 3958
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Posted: 03/11/03 - 18:41 Post subject:
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not all about taxs
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